Lack of chatter about the Ketogenic Diet

[CCC]

Could you please reference it? I like diagrams too

Sorry - it's my own diagram. It took me ages to find all the little pieces and put them together in one place.

 

[CCC]

@CCC thanks for posting in spite of not doing keto! (Just for fun: I was amazed to learn that you - and me alike, and all of us - actually were already on a ketogenic diet: mother's milk )

This is an excellent diagramm. - And now take this: I have a high tryptophan intake
- Tryptophan: 0.6 g or more (the WHO recommends >200mg)
- Total protein: 56 g or more
but metabolites on this diagramm are
- low: 5hiaa 0 (zero!) in 24h urine, melatonin low or normal in 8h urines morning evening night
- normal: serotonine in 24h urine, quinolinic acid and kynurenine in 1st morning spot urine

And I am tested for iron, Zn, Mg (in serum, rbc and celltrend) and all these vitamins (in serum, urine or celltrend) and they are normal, my dietary intakes alike. (On Ca I had a deficit on celltrend, but supplement since.) Where on earth can that tryptophan go? Is there a pathway how it dissipates into nirvana, right out of my body??

And I took a small amount of 5htp (about 1/10th of a 50mg capsule) and it caused these:
first, all good:
- I felt improved gastric motility ( I can feel that. Most people dont. But after more than a decade of yoga, I have quite good "interoceptive sensitivity", just to use a recently learned science-bullshit-bingo term )
- a nice relaxed feeling
but then:
- 4h later, a strong wave of heat allover.

Well, if you have 0 5HIAAA but normal serotonin, quinolinate and kynurenine, it looks like the tryptophan could be going into making all of those products, but something is stopping you from making the 5HIAAA.

 

[Crux]

I've been trying the ketogenic diet for 2 mnths. now. Energy is only beginning to improve.

It's restrictive, and deficiencies can occur if the carb foods relied on for micronutrients aren't replaced.
I got into trouble with low copper....didn't realize how important chocolate and nuts were.

Not everyone responds to it, but, I do - it gets my vote.

I love fat. Even since childhood, I would go for it.

Ketones have shown to be neuroprotective and neuroregenerative.

The choice to try the keto diet was because I did become severely carb intolerant some months ago. Lightheadedness, weakness, increased fatigue occurred.

I suspect this was, in part, because of the copper deficiency. ( I don't really want to test this theory, but copper enzymes are involved with carb metabolism and fat metabolism.)

I plan to stay with it indefinitely unless something otherwise happens.

 

[Lolinda]

Reading your comment, @CCC , I had to laugh about myself: so simple, so convincing. I did not think of this!! Can I give more than 1 like to your post, please? (I told 3 doctors about this........ )

So then it may be the case that either
a) my body downregulated serotonin breakdown in order to keep to the little serotonin it has and not lose it into 5hiaa. I think 5hiaa is inert, and thats why it is excreted, right?
b) I have a deficiency of sthg that breaks down serotonine: molybdenum, B2, ...

When I tried B2 or molybdenum, in both cases I had bad gastric motility and poor sleep. (Gastric motility is powered to a good deal by serotonine.). Unfortunately, these experiments do not differentiate between a) or b).

 

[Gondwanaland]

Sorry - it's my own diagram. It took me ages to find all the little pieces and put them together in one place.

Do you have more of them?

 

[Gondwanaland]

Ketones have shown to be neuroprotective and neuroregenerative.

Ketosis wastes some nutrients in urine like B1 and B5 for instance, plus minerals (Na, K, Mg, don't know about the others but probably Ca as well).

 

[Lolinda]

Ketosis wastes some nutrients in urine like B1 and B5 for instance, plus minerals (Na, K, Mg, don't know about the others but probably Ca as well).

I've been trying to do the ketogenic diet and struggling as I am working on my food disciplines. I am much better than it was last year .
What I've been reading on ketogains is that it's important to supplement electrolytes when doing ketogenic otherwise fatigue, muscle cramps ,brain fog can all become problem.

Here is my story:
When I went into ketosis, I had even bigger sleep issues for a few days than before. solution: before going to bed, 1 teaspoon of salt in warm water with 200mg Mg. This made me sleep. Yes, one loses salt and K in ketosis.
And all meals I spice with lots of salt to the maximum of my appetite. I developed a lot of taste for good salts. I like the most coarse naturally harvested (water evaporation) unrefined sea salt. While research says the quantities of minerals do not contribute to nutrition, it also confirms that they contribute to taste.

Against the loss of K I was not successful even with small doses. Had side effects all the time. Believe them to be because of SIBO: cell division needs lots of K. So feeding K to my SIBO may make more SIBO. However, I succeeded by tons of Mg. No more muscle cramps. Mg keeps K in cells so it does not get lost into urine that much.

Tests that tell me if I have enough K and Mg:
- If I do not get cramps easily, then I have barely enough (cramps are caused by lack of K and Mg)
- If my towels and armpits of Tshirts do not get stinky in spite of running in them, then I have really enough Mg. (There is research out there on smells reduced by Mg.)
- Certainly, I had also celltrend and serum tests done. Serum is BS, celltrend I appreciate, RBC tests alike. But I think the symptoms are in many cases more useful, because you dont need to wait a month.

Ca is a problem to get enough on keto. I am not aware of losing it, but I am utmost aware of not getting enough. Solutions:
- Sardines with bones
- Bone broth (dont take it if you have SIBO. I have SIBO and it is realy bad if I take bone broth and most of all it slowly gets worse on regular bone broth)
- transdermal Ca and K2, vit. D, Mg. Ca alone causes artheriosclerosis on the long run. K2, vit D and Mg help to shuttle Ca to where it is needed: bone and teeth. The science behind is for example that K2 is needed to form carboxylated osteocalcin, the molecule that gets the Ca into the bones.
- I would not take any Ca by mouth. Ca is feed for biofilms. The mesh of the biofilm matrix is hold together by Ca. Remember, you are only the second consumer of all your supplements. Microbes feed particularly well on isolated nutrients and get them before you do.

Tests if I have enough Ca:
- On Ca (transdermally) I can run on asphalt 1-2 hours without. Before Ca, I had knee pain. Cannot explain the effect.
- Bone Ca scan (I am awaiting the results now)

B5: Usually all nutritionists believe that one cannot be deficient on B5. I finally found a paper that keto loses B5 into urine. I profitted immensely from B5, small amounts in the ballpark of 1-2x the rda, transdermally. It helps you to make CoA. I noticed a big increase in my ability to eat more (I am underweight). CoA is damn important f.ex to have more energy.

Tests for B5 sufficiency in me:
Ungortunately, I have no specific "symptomatic test", only things that are also influenced by other factors in me:
- good energy levels, much more than w/o B5
- More appetite, can even gain weight. In particular, I can eat much more at the same meal without even noticing it. I just pour as much olive oil as my taste is, eat butter to taste, etc and notice that on B5 the before-after weight of butter added into cronometer.com amounts to much more calories. Good for my low weight!


Generally, my best way of measuring nutritional intake of minerals, vitamins, etc is cronometer.com. It computes them all from my foods.

Generally, I made the experience that nutrients resorb well transdermally in simple dilution with a tiny amount of water. Just take normal supplemental amounts transdermally. For B5, Ca, I can tell for sure that it is the case because of immediately recognizable effects. For Mg, I need 5x rda (2100mg) in 6 doses divided over the day for the no stinky armpits even when running in the tshirt and ot changing it effect ) For K2 and vit D I will retest in a while.

So this was my mini-guide on minerals and vitamins to make me happy on paleo-keto diet since April 2014. Hope this helps. Certainly, there is much more to happy ketosis than minerals and vitamins...
And a thanks here to @Gondwanaland who helped me to some of these insights

I posted all these now without references because I made often the experience that people are not interested in that. If you are, let me know, I have them.

 

[Lolinda]

Ketones have shown to be neuroprotective and neuroregenerative

Interesting! Could you point me to research for neurodegenerative? Or just any source where you learned this? I am utmost aware of neuroprotection by ketosis (multiplies mitos), but would like to learn about neurodegenerative effects.

update:
I indeed badly misred it... neurodegenerative instead of neuroregenerative...
But actually, this is not a random misread but a worry in me: my neuropathy appeared since I am on ketosis. There was not any direct effect. I am on ketosis since April 2014 and I developed very first neuropathy signs around April 2015, increasing since. I am not aware of any such link. But the mere possibility bugs me much and I would really like to learn more if anybody knows any faintest link between ketosis and neuropathy (tingling in feet, stinging pains, hot soles, numbness).

 

[Crux]

Ketosis wastes some nutrients in urine like B1 and B5 for instance, plus minerals (Na, K, Mg, don't know about the others but probably Ca as well).

Got a reference?

 

[Crux]

Interesting! Could you point me to research for neurodegenerative? Or just any source where you learned this? I am utmost aware of neuroprotection by ketosis (multiplies mitos), but would lije to learn about neurodegenerative effects.

I wrote neuroRegenerative, easy to misread.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Got a reference?

Electrolytes:
http://ketodietapp.com/Blog/post/2013/04/16/Keto-flu-and-Sufficient-Intake-of-Electrolytes

http://ketodietapp.com/Blog/post/2015/05/17/quick-guide-to-keto-flu-remedies

B5:
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/20/9/960.abstract
B1:
I read it in a nutrition book, and when I find the quote I will post here.

 

[Crux]

Thanks @Gondwanaland ,

I'm very familiar with the electrolytes issue, but it's good to repeat it - easy to forget.

The ajcn article is dubious. They are confusing nutritional ketosis with ketoacidosis, two very different phenomena.
The article is from 1967, and they were calling it 'diabetic ketosis'.

I still take a low dose B complex anyway... always will. Still take 1 mg. B12, afraid to stop. B12 deficiency was ugly.

The only diet that seemed to have all the nutrients was the Weston Price Foundation one, but it was too carby/grainy/fermenty, and, it prohibited chocolate. no.

 

[Lolinda]

The ajcn article is dubious. They are confusing nutritional ketosis with ketoacidosis, two very different phenomena.
The article is from 1967, and they were calling it 'diabetic ketosis'

I originated this issue, so here some comments:

When I researched B5 and (dietary!) ketosis, found just zero, except for a single recommendation to take it on a sole keto website, amongst dozens which did not mention any B5. Searching further, I finally found this paper. Take it as what it is: a faint indication that there could be a loss of B5 in ketosis. In ketoacidosis there apparently it applies, in dietary ketosis we dont know, but I would say "further investigations warranted".

Personally, I can say that I hugely profitted from B5 while in ketosis (see my overlong post above for details). But again this is not even an N=1 study because I did not try B5 before. So again, we dont know.

Then, B5 urinary excretion (what they measured in the ketoacidosis study) was on the GPL (great plains lab) OAT (urinary organic acid test) and mine was normal in ketosis, before supplementing with B5. Did we learn a thing? Nope, as it could be that I was so depleted that the depletion and the elevated excretion levelled off.

Summary of all the above: no clue.

But there is an interesting comment by Rich van Konynenburg, whos smartness I appreciate a lot. I wish he would still be with us... This comment is relevant as B5 is a precursor to CoA.

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...e-toxicity-the-cause-of-cfs.9757/#post-178493
Acetyl CoA is what feeds the Krebs cycle, and I have seen many urine organic acid panel results from PWMEs that are low in citric acid, which is the substance that acetyl CoA is converted into by the first reaction in the cycle.

-> maybe citric acid is an indicator for B5 (... and probably many other things).

Now, look at my citric acid urinary levels while in ketosis, before B5.

 

[Crux]

@Lolinda ,

I've been coming across a condition of pantothenate kinase -associated neurodegeneration with brain iron accumulation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantothenate_kinase-associated_neurodegeneration

It's these sorts of B vitamin deficiencies or lack of their enzymes, that scare me enough to not trust any diet entirely.

The ketogenic diet is moderate in protein, so there should be enough B vitamins, but I remain wary. I'm broken in many places, and restricting iron to a degree. I tolerate some dairy now, so that's good.

I have very high respect for Rich van K.

It's good you've found B5 to help. Now I'm curious to add more. I remember feeling better with extra.

The keto diet has been shown to be protein sparing and antiscorbutic. ( prevents scurvy)

 

[Gondwanaland]

The ketogenic diet is moderate in protein, so there should be enough B vitamins,

I think the main issue is that ketones do cause some nutrient wasting. There is an insomnia epidemic amog keto dieters. For me B5 is what resolves insomnia (even better than melatonin supplementation). Acetyl-CoA is needed for melatonin production. But B5 can cause calcification, and I am having soft tissue calcification (incl. endothelium).

Additionally, ketosis raises cortisol, and B5 supports the adrenals.

My reading of B1 waste with ketosis is on a similar note (and also experienced it personally like with B5).

 

[Crux]

There is an insomnia epidemic amog keto dieters

On forums I've searched, many have reported improved sleep after adaptation. My sleep is improving, but I still take the same sleep stack for now.

Additionally, ketosis raises cortisol, and B5 supports the adrenals.

If only...People have reported this, but I can't.

Of course there will be non-responders, good to learn as much.

 

[Tuha]

I also tried ketogenic diet and I can say that after few days i got 20 % more energy, what had a big impact on the quality of my life. I followed it 4-5 month without any problem but then from one day to another I started to feel strange. I think I felt hypoglycemic. So I had to put more sugar to my diet (but I still eat much less sugar than before the diet). The good thing is that the energy level seems to stay. Btw. for me it was very easy to follow this diet. I got used to it after few days.
Also my lipid profil improved a lot (my triglycerid´s level was always high but with ketogenic diet it was perfect)

 

[Gondwanaland]

On forums I've searched, many have reported improved sleep after adaptation.

At the beginning yes, but it doesn't seem to hold for most folks.

 

[Gondwanaland]

If you want a comment from someone with low 5HIAA who has never been on a ketogenic diet ...

The only thing I can suggest is from this diagram:
View attachment 17753
(Hope it's big enough to read)

We had very, very low 5HIAA at one stage (measured in urine). An attempt to raise serotonin with 5htp was a total disaster and caused a major crash. Looking back, it probably had more to do with a b2 deficiency with the result that there was no breakdown product. We also had high quinolinate.

I know you said it is more than a lab result, but I like to work off diagrams, and this one helped us a lot.

BTW at some point of the process not shown in your diagram T3 is needed to make serotonin. n=1

 

[Crux]

At the beginning yes, but it doesn't seem to hold for most folks.

The sleep difficulty people have had may be from caloric restriction rather than the keto diet itself. Many folks are utilizing it for weightloss and diabetes management, but they can easily have side effects when calorie intake is too low.

I've had insomnia from low calorie intake and inflammation/infection.

Serotonin hasn't proven to be the cure for insomnia or depression. It can be inflammatory, if elevated in the gut. If it's too low, yes, problematic.

High T3 is also associated with shorter lifespan. It's been likened to keeping a vehicle idling too high.

Ketone bodies increase GABA, which, in my mind is desirable for health, calm, and sleep.