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knee pain

snowathlete

Senior Member
Messages
5,374
Location
UK
Good morning all,

Over the last few months the pain in my knees has gone from, painful while doing it, and for a short while afterwards - to painful while doing it, and then for ages aftward. And its more painful than ever.

Stairs are the worse, but getting up is bad too, as is standing, or walking.

I also have creeking joins and tightness, my wrist hurts at the moment and has for a while, and about a year ago one of my fingers was bad (aching) for months on end - my wife things it might be athritis. Im 30.

Is this normal with ME/CFS?
Im planning to go to my GP about it this week, but would like to have an idea of things before i go.

Thanks
Joel
 

Wonko

Senior Member
Messages
1,467
Location
The other side.
In my experience it's normal and tends to coincide with other symptoms increasing, i.e. a townturn in health. Knees in particular can be helped by doing full range (feet flat on floor and thighs should be parallel to ground or below parallel - hold onto something if necessary to keep balance) bodyweight or wall squats, if your capable of these, to rebalance the joints/muscles around them - but if your not capable fo full range then dont do partial squats as this will make the problem worse. As a temporary fix you can use knee sleeves to keep the joint warm and provide a little support. This sort of thing

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Neo-G-OPEN-...UTF8&coliid=I3PIP55081OVEU&colid=FZ8IJ0O1SFXZ

I've never managed to sort out wrist/forearm/hand pain although it's pretty much a constant, variable but always there. Your wife may be right, it may be athritis, but in my case it corelates to an increase in inflamation (tissues around the pain feel, to the touch, like the tissue around a sprained ankle etc.)
 

Wayne

Senior Member
Messages
4,270
Location
Ashland, Oregon
Knee Pain - Classic Symptom of Lyme Disease

I also have creeking joins and tightness, my wrist hurts at the moment and has for a while, and about a year ago one of my fingers was bad (aching) for months on end - my wife things it might be athritis. Im 30. ......... Is this normal with ME/CFS?

Hi Joel,

Sorry to hear about your debilitating knee pain, and more. Just wanted to mention that knee pain is a classic symptom of Lyme Disease. If you haven't gotten the more recent, more reliable Lyme testing, I would suggested discussing this with your GP. I would recommend doing a fair amount of research beforehand however, as most doctors do not have a good understanding of Lyme testing, whether in years past, or in the present.

Best, Wayne
 

SOC

Senior Member
Messages
7,849
Good morning all,

Over the last few months the pain in my knees has gone from, painful while doing it, and for a short while afterwards - to painful while doing it, and then for ages aftward. And its more painful than ever.

Stairs are the worse, but getting up is bad too, as is standing, or walking.

I also have creeking joins and tightness, my wrist hurts at the moment and has for a while, and about a year ago one of my fingers was bad (aching) for months on end - my wife things it might be athritis. Im 30.

Is this normal with ME/CFS?
Im planning to go to my GP about it this week, but would like to have an idea of things before i go.

Thanks
Joel

That was one of the most annoying symptoms early in the illness for both my daughter and I.

Two things helped for us: First and foremost, we had to stop overdoing, we thought we weren't at the time, but we were. :( It's one of the first thing that shows up when we relapse/flare. Secondly, for me, Cymbalta took enough edge off the knee/wrist pain that I either didn't need more analgesics or standard OTC analgesics could handle it.
 

snowathlete

Senior Member
Messages
5,374
Location
UK
Sorry to hear about your debilitating knee pain, and more. Just wanted to mention that knee pain is a classic symptom of Lyme Disease. If you haven't gotten the more recent, more reliable Lyme testing, I would suggested discussing this with your GP. I would recommend doing a fair amount of research beforehand however, as most doctors do not have a good understanding of Lyme testing, whether in years past, or in the present.

Wouldnt i have a bite mark, i thought lymes gave you a ring like mark?
I think i got tested but then if there is a new test then maybe i should ask about that.
thanks Wayne, and thanks everyone else too.
 

*GG*

senior member
Messages
6,389
Location
Concord, NH
Wouldnt i have a bite mark, i thought lymes gave you a ring like mark?
I think i got tested but then if there is a new test then maybe i should ask about that.
thanks Wayne, and thanks everyone else too.

I don't think a ring mark is necessary. I believe less than 50% of people get that. FYI

GG
 

RustyJ

Contaminated Cell Line 'RustyJ'
Messages
1,200
Location
Mackay, Aust
This thread reminds me to ask, I frequently get painful and hot knee joint swelling, like arthritis, which lasts for about 24 hours and then seems to migrate to the other knee or to an ankle joint or a wrist joint. Never lasts for more than a day or so in either joint and after about four days the whole episode goes away. I asked a doctor about this and his response was that he'd never heard of it before.

Does anyone else have this sort of symptom or know what is going on?
 

Wayne

Senior Member
Messages
4,270
Location
Ashland, Oregon
Lyme and Arthritic Knees

Wouldnt i have a bite mark, i thought lymes gave you a ring like mark?
I think i got tested but then if there is a new test then maybe i should ask about that.
thanks Wayne, and thanks everyone else too.

Hey Joel,

Ggingues is correct in that less than half of people who get infected with Lyme ever have a red ring mark. Conversely, a good percentage of people who get bit and do get a red ring mark do not actually get infected with the Lyme bacteria, borrelia burgdorferi.

There's much to learn about Lyme, perhaps most important is that a large majority of the symptoms are identical to CFS. Many people diagnosed with CFS and/or Fibromyalgia end up testing positive for Lyme. When they effectively treat their Lyme, they generally get better. Thousands have done so.

To my regret, I did not focus on learning about Lyme much earlier. For a very good introduction, I would recommend watching the video "Under Our Skin". A good number of libraries have it available. I would also recommend the book, "Cure Unknown, Inside the Lyme Epidemic". It describes the politics surrounding Lyme, and why traditional testing is notoriously inaccurate.

BTW, Lyme Disease, and other infections known as Lyme co-infections, can be picked up via fleas, cats (bartonella, or cat scratch disease), parasites (and more), and can be transmitted congenitally and sexually. Conventional medicine says there is no scientific evidence to support these claims. Listening to conventional medicine dogma has been disastrous to my own health and well being.

Also, BTW, in earlier years, it was often the case where someone infected with Lyme had only the Lyme bacteria. These days, most cases of Lyme involve numerous coinfections such as babesia, bartonella, ehrlichia, and more. So people today are often much sicker, and present with even more debilitating symptoms. Conventional testing generally does not look for these co-infections, with some being as serious or more so than the borellia burgdorferi.

Best, Wayne
 

taniaaust1

Senior Member
Messages
13,054
Location
Sth Australia
It interests me how many of us have the same kind of pains in the same places. I still get wrist pain from doing things involving my wrists and occassional pain in my knees which at times can make me limp, (I once had it helped by using some "tissue salts" but I forgotten which one I used).

The other joint pains I used to get I dont get anymore now that I dont seem to get FM anymore with the ME, was pain in ankles and aches and pains in finger joints.. it would be in a couple of fingers in one hand one day and other times on 1-2 finger joints on other hand, the finger joint pain used to move about a lot.

I think this all is often just another ME thing, it was in my own case. (thou do see your doctor to get rheumatoid arthritis ruled out).
 

snowathlete

Senior Member
Messages
5,374
Location
UK
Thanks for the replies.

Whereas i have a diagnosis of ME/CFS at the moment, i see that the symptoms are very similar to Lymes, and this latest pain in my joins leads me to be suspicious that i could have Lyme, even if it is as well as ME/CFS.

I also looked through a list of symptoms on th net and three sprung out at me in addition to the join pain - symptoms i have had but which havent really been explained by my hvaing ME/CFS.
1. tingling in the hands or feet - I dont have this now, but did about a year ago, and went to my doctor with it. It eventually went away, but we werent able to identify what the cause was - i had it for several months.
2. pain in the heel and sole which is often misdiagnosed as Plantar Fasciitis. I had a problem with this a few months ago which got diagnosed as this, but went away on its own eventually.
3. Slightly elevated liver enzymes, and slight enlargement of the liver. At first this led my doctor to consider that i might have hepatitus, but blood tests rules that out. In the end it went down to borderline high and he dismissed it as ok.

It certainly seems to warrant visiting my GP and asking for some tests to be run for Lyme and perhaps co-infections.

With the hit and miss testing that there has been traditionally in this area, what tests should i be asking for, and why?

Thanks
Joel
 

taniaaust1

Senior Member
Messages
13,054
Location
Sth Australia
Thanks for the replies.

Whereas i have a diagnosis of ME/CFS at the moment, i see that the symptoms are very similar to Lymes, and this latest pain in my joins leads me to be suspicious that i could have Lyme, even if it is as well as ME/CFS.

I also looked through a list of symptoms on th net and three sprung out at me in addition to the join pain - symptoms i have had but which havent really been explained by my hvaing ME/CFS.
1. tingling in the hands or feet - I dont have this now, but did about a year ago, and went to my doctor with it. It eventually went away, but we werent able to identify what the cause was - i had it for several months.
2. pain in the heel and sole which is often misdiagnosed as Plantar Fasciitis. I had a problem with this a few months ago which got diagnosed as this, but went away on its own eventually.
3. Slightly elevated liver enzymes, and slight enlargement of the liver. At first this led my doctor to consider that i might have hepatitus, but blood tests rules that out. In the end it went down to borderline high and he dismissed it as ok.

It certainly seems to warrant visiting my GP and asking for some tests to be run for Lyme and perhaps co-infections.

With the hit and miss testing that there has been traditionally in this area, what tests should i be asking for, and why?

Thanks
Joel

I know liver enzymes arent an uncommon abnormality of ME. Doctors thought i may have hepatitis at one point too due to that symptom
....

tingling in hands and feet can be a part of ME .. it also is a symptom which could mean you had some B12 deficiency. Signs of this can first start off with tingling in the extremitites (hands and feet) and over time if the deficiency continues.. one can end up with more neuro symptoms.
 

snowathlete

Senior Member
Messages
5,374
Location
UK
Thanks. Yes, it absolutely could all be ME symptoms, but worth ruling lyme out. My B12 got tested at the time and that came back fine - but as my doctor said, unless it gets worse its probably nothing to worry about, and could be caused by a number of different things.
 

valentinelynx

Senior Member
Messages
1,310
Location
Tucson
This thread reminds me to ask, I frequently get painful and hot knee joint swelling, like arthritis, which lasts for about 24 hours and then seems to migrate to the other knee or to an ankle joint or a wrist joint. Never lasts for more than a day or so in either joint and after about four days the whole episode goes away. I asked a doctor about this and his response was that he'd never heard of it before.

Does anyone else have this sort of symptom or know what is going on?

The "doctor" sounds like an idiot, or at least has forgotten the basics from medical school. Here's an excerpt from an article for primary care docs:

Diagnostic Approach to Polyarticular Joint Pain
ANNA MIES RICHIE, M.D., and MARK L. FRANCIS, M.D., Southern Illinois University School of Medicine, Springfield, Illinois
Am Fam Physician. 2003 Sep 15;68(6):1151-1160.

"MIGRATORY ARTHRITIS
Migratory arthritis is characterized by rapid onset of swelling in one or two joints, with resolution over a few days. As the symptoms resolve, similar symptoms emerge in another joint, usually in an asymmetric location.20,28 This symptom pattern can occur in gonococcal arthritis, rheumatic fever, sarcoidosis, systemic lupus erythematosus, Lyme disease, bacterial endocarditis, and Whipple's disease."

Get a better doctor? A rheumatologist is definitely in order if you have actual joint swelling. While migratory arthralgias (joint pain that moves around) is common in ME/CFS and FMS, actual hot swollen joints is not common and deserves examination by a competent physician.

Best of luck.
 

RustyJ

Contaminated Cell Line 'RustyJ'
Messages
1,200
Location
Mackay, Aust
The "doctor" sounds like an idiot, or at least has forgotten the basics from medical school. Here's an excerpt from an article for primary care docs:

Diagnostic Approach to Polyarticular Joint Pain
ANNA MIES RICHIE, M.D., and MARK L. FRANCIS, M.D., Southern Illinois University School of Medicine, Springfield, Illinois
Am Fam Physician. 2003 Sep 15;68(6):1151-1160.

"MIGRATORY ARTHRITIS
Migratory arthritis is characterized by rapid onset of swelling in one or two joints, with resolution over a few days. As the symptoms resolve, similar symptoms emerge in another joint, usually in an asymmetric location.20,28 This symptom pattern can occur in gonococcal arthritis, rheumatic fever, sarcoidosis, systemic lupus erythematosus, Lyme disease, bacterial endocarditis, and Whipple's disease."

Get a better doctor? A rheumatologist is definitely in order if you have actual joint swelling. While migratory arthralgias (joint pain that moves around) is common in ME/CFS and FMS, actual hot swollen joints is not common and deserves examination by a competent physician.

Best of luck.

Thanks for the info. I really hadn't heard of migratory arthritic symptoms in me patients. As for my doctor... difficult to find one that isn't an idiot when they are confronted with me. I will check out those diseases to see if I can pinpoint anything.
 

Wayne

Senior Member
Messages
4,270
Location
Ashland, Oregon
Normal B12 Readings May Still be Deficient

My B12 got tested at the time and that came back fine - but as my doctor said, unless it gets worse its probably nothing to worry about...

As most people's nutritional status and general health has declined in recent decades, test readings that were once considered deficient or abnormal have been given new parameters and are now considered fine. I've heard many with "fine" B12 levels can actually have various B12 deficiency symptoms improve dramatically by supplementing anyway.

Wayne
 

Sherlock

Boswellia for lungs and MC stabllizing
Messages
1,287
Location
k8518704 USA
It interests me how many of us have the same kind of pains in the same places. I still get wrist pain from doing things involving my wrists and occassional pain in my knees which at times can make me limp, (I once had it helped by using some "tissue salts" but I forgotten which one I used).

The other joint pains I used to get I dont get anymore now that I dont seem to get FM anymore with the ME, was pain in ankles and aches and pains in finger joints.. it would be in a couple of fingers in one hand one day and other times on 1-2 finger joints on other hand, the finger joint pain used to move about a lot.

I think this all is often just another ME thing, it was in my own case. (thou do see your doctor to get rheumatoid arthritis ruled out).
I've been getting that now, also moving around between fingers -- wrists, too, and sometimes ankles. There seems to be two stages: in the first, there is inflammation and stiffness and sometimes noticeable swelling. That can resolve on its own after a day. The second stage happens if I sleep on or bend a joint too much during sleep. Then it is as if sprained, and that can last for many weeks if it's bad.

I had been having a lot of potatoes, and they are said to be able to aggravate joint inflammation.