Joseph Cohen - Self hacked

[aaron_c]

I had one or two interactions with Joseph Cohen that were mixed. Here they are:

Me:

Hi Joseph,

First of all, thank you for the list of pathogens that inhibit VDRs (with citations!). Very helpful.

I do have two comments regarding the item that reads: “Ubiquitin (R) – autophagy stops this.”

First of all, ubiquitin isn’t a pathogen, it is “a small protein that is found in almost all cellular tissues in humans and other eukaryotic organisms, which helps to regulate the processes of other proteins in the body.” (news-medical.net)

Secondly, the article that you linked to appears to disagree with the second source it cites. The article you linked to claims: “At the receptor level, calcitriol induces ubiquitination of the VDR leading to its degradation by the ubiquitin-proteasomal pathway (38,39).” The first source details how calcitriol binding is necessary for SUG1 to degrade VDRs. So far so good, but I mention this mostly because it is important to note that it does not look at the net effect of calcitriol on VDR levels.

The second article that was cited appears to have been misunderstood. Far from claiming that calcitriol induces ubiquitination of VDRs (which then leads to VDR degredation and fewer VDRs) the study is titled “1,25-Dihydroxyvitamin D3 INCREASES nuclear vitamin D3 receptors by BLOCKING ubiquitin/proteasome-mediated degradation in human skin.” [emphasis added] We should also note that this second, misrepresented study looks at the net effect of calcitriol on VDR levels–and found that calcitriol increases VDR levels both by increasing VDR transcription and by decreasing VDR degradation.

Joseph Cohen:

Ubiquitin was put in the wrong section

I didn't know enough at the time I wrote this--the list of pathogens that inhibits VDRs is from the Marshal Protocol, and it is entirely theoretical, backed up only by a computer simulation of a common protein that they synthesize.

In spite of our exchange, he didn't remove what I found to be a poorly written and seemingly false paper as his source.

...

Me:

Hi Joseph,

You mentioned that “Vitamin D3 Can Compete With the Active Form.” I am having a hard time finding a source for this. I gather it came from the Marshall Protocol folks, but I can’t seem to find where they said this. Furthermore, I can find at least one old study that clearly says that cholecalciferol does not compete with calcitriol, at least in the guts of chicks.

Thanks!

Joseph Cohen:

Theoretical concern…

Since this interaction he has modified his original post to reflect that the concern comes from Dr. Marshal and that other studies disagree with it. Not that I got any credit! (Joking...partly.) So I give him points for being willing to update what he wrote with better information.

In summary, I like his enthusiasm, and he certainly seems able to pull together a whole lot of research--but I do not get the feeling that he reads many of the papers he cites, which makes it difficult to trust any of his conclusions. I like his willingness to try new things and his mind's ability to pull somewhat disparate bits of research together, but as I said, I think he needs to take more time to double-check his work.

 

[drob31]

Could you get any more condescending? Your attitude is more than enough to turn me off from any treatment or practitioner you might be advertising.

From your posts, my only conclusion is that you don't know what the hell you are talking about regarding ME.

I don't think Sherpa's trying to be condesending. I think he's honing in on how food sensitivities could be related to autoimmune like conditions and that could be related to CFS. I know some doctors think certain variants of it could be caused by autoimmunity.

 

[drob31]

Instant Pot 7qt pressure cooker, Breville Juice Fountain Plus juicer, red glasses to filter out blue light after sundown, orange bulbs to reduce blue light after dark.

The Instant Pot breaks down lectins harder than normal cooking it hugely saves cooking time. It's not essential but extremely helpful for grain-free diets that require an abundance of fresh meat & veggies to be cooked.

A good, non-inflammatory diet is critical for my good health. And sleep .

I wonder how many sufferers on this forum unknowingly eat lots of inflammatory foods, stay up half the night on the computer, etc.

Can you give me an example of what you put in the pot and hot long it takes ? Do you just dump raw veggies and meat in and spices ?

 

[Sherpa]

Can you give me an example of what you put in the pot and hot long it takes ? Do you just dump raw veggies and meat in and spices ?

@drob31
The Instant Pot basically cooks (steams) food at faster than microwave speeds, but healthier / tastier. The intense cooking also breaks down certain inflammatory lectins. It makes the process cooking and cleanup about 85% easier, so it's a "must have" gadget for fatigued or busy people. There are many fancy, complete recipes with spices and complex steps but I mostly use it to cook basic meats, eggs and veggies fast. I cook a couple pounds (days) worth at once, add sauces and seasoning later. I put the items in below with a cup of filtered water, close the lid and set the timer. There is a 5 min warm up period where it heats up and then it counts down by timer as listed below, a bell rings and it's done.

Sweet potatoes (cut in cubes) - 7 mins on high

Eggs (hard boiled) - 5 mins on high

3 lbs of chicken legs - 7 to 8 mins on high

3 heads of broccoli chopped - 2 mins on low

Baby carrots - 3 mins on low

"Boiled" Green bananas - 10 mins on high


Compare that to preheating an oven to 425 degrees and baking a sweet potato for 50 mins... Checking it several times... Bringing water to a boil first, putting eggs in, fishing them out...Or baking chicken for a half hour and testing it with a fork! Just too much labor / hassle for a SEID/CFS sufferer to do frequently.

 

[Avengers26]

@Sherpa Do you use this one? It has a lot of good reviews.

https://www.amazon.com/Instant-Pot-...6&sr=1-2&keywords=instant+pot+pressure+cooker

 

[Sherpa]

@Sherpa Do you use this one? It has a lot of good reviews.

https://www.amazon.com/Instant-Pot-IP-DUO60-Multi-Functional-Pressure/dp/B00FLYWNYQ/ref=sr_1_2?s=kitchen&ie=UTF8&qid=1469312336&sr=1-2&keywords=instant pot pressure cooker

Yes that's the one Selfhacked recommends. I use it. It's great. Takes some trial and error to figure out perfect cooking times but if you're willing to experiment and take notes on how stuff turned out ( green beans, low, 3 mins = too firm) it's a time saver.

 

[Valentijn]

I don't think Sherpa's trying to be condesending.

From where I'm sitting, it very much looked like he was blaming our years or decades of illness upon being too daft or ignorant to have ever heard of or attempted basic sleep hygiene. It's especially insulting for those who are afflicted by ME-related or comorbid sleep disorders which have absolutely nothing to do with "stay[ing] up half the night on the computer". Those symptoms and the accompanying problems are no doubt distressing enough without some guy on the internet suggesting it's their own fault.

I think he's honing in on how food sensitivities could be related to autoimmune like conditions and that could be related to CFS.

Key words: "could be". I'll add a few even more important words "but probably aren't". There are dozens of quack diets for every problem on the planet, and probably hundreds of variations of each of those. There is not an even vaguely intelligent explanation for such a phenomenon, especially in the specific context of ME and whatever quack diet is being proposed.

At the very least any such suggestions are extraordinarily speculative. When discussing them, it would be more honest and a lot nicer to treat them as such, instead of suggesting that people are causing the perpetuation of their own illness by failing to heed some random guy's advice.

There literally are hundreds of such food-based beliefs surrounding ME, and you should be able to respect that there's no reason to think you've found the "one true way" any more than the blueberry guru, or the sauerkraut fanatic, or the paleo army, or the chocolate lovers, etc etc etc.

It's nasty to suggest that failure to follow your beliefs is resulting in harm. It's a high-pressure tactic for selling that belief, and it doesn't belong near any sick patients.

 

[Sherpa]

@Valentijn i think you assume I was being sarcastic, blaming or condescending when I had no such intention. I was just wondering how common food intolerances and cicadaan rhythm disruption were and if other practitoners addressed them. The ones I have dealt with (before Selfhacked) have not to the same level.

What seems actually condescending and potentially hurtful is to tell someone (me) who suffered terribly and was debilitated for 5 years they were "not actually sick"... and that, after several thousand hours of research and self hacking attempts... when they did finally manage to get all of their symptoms under control they "literally know nothing about ME."

Most of my adult life has been a wreck - a perpetual haze of parasites, infections, biotoxins, endocrine imbalances, insomnia, catabolic wasting, nutrient deficiencies, debilitating severe anxiety, and 24/7 inflammation.

I understand SEID is feels a being swallowed up in quicksand pit of despair and sometimes people are very condescending and dismissive to the sufferers... So I forgive you for assuming I was. And I ask you not to give up hope or believing that there could be some sort or treatment or breakthrough that would make a difference, new technology is appearing every year

 

[Valentijn]

I was just wondering how common food intolerances and cicadaan rhythm disruption were and if other practitoners addressed them.

No, you were speculating that people's failures to "self-hack" and make these supposed fixes was the problem, and you have continued to do so in this very same post.

What seems actually condescending and potentially hurtful is to tell someone (me) who suffered terribly and was debilitated for 5 years they were "not actually sick" ....

I did not say that, nor did anyone else here. Lying is not an acceptable tactic for persuasion.

... and that, after several thousand hours of research and self hacking attempts... when they did finally manage to get all of their symptoms under control they "literally know nothing about ME."

Once again, you are suggesting that self-hacking is the cure, with a bit of playing the victim thrown in to dodge scrutiny of your claims. If you think a diet change is going to result in recovery, you really do know pretty much nothing about ME. Seriously, go read some research or research summaries. Maybe the IOM report for a start.

I understand SEID is feels a being swallowed up in quicksand pit of despair ....

No, it doesn't involve despair actually. Please see comment above about your apparent failure to understand or characterize ME.

So I forgive you for assuming I was.

Again, the ego. You are mandating that I have done something which requires forgiveness. You are also attempting to attribute a need for apology upon me, despite that I obviously do not feel any such need. It's actually pretty creepy.

And I ask you not to give up hope or believing that there could be some sort or treatment or breakthrough that would make a difference, new technology is appearing every year

Who said anything about giving up hope? I'm well aware of the relevant research into ME, and it has fuck all to do with diet changes and "self-hacking".

I strenuously recommend your change your manner of interacting with people. Perhaps you are trying to play at being the clever and enlightened savior of the miserable ME patients, but it's coming across as predatory and discomfiting, bordering on disgusting.

 

[Mij]

@Sherpa I don't see or get the impression that anyone here is criticizing your lifestyle change and what has helped you with your health issues. Perhaps you could stick to sharing your own personal experience rather than promoting Joe as someone who understands chronic illnesses and charges $125/hr for a reading. He's set up a little business for himself based on "research" that most can obtain online for FREE.

 

[drob31]

I think anyone who tries to affect their health with supplements or sunlight, or medications, etc, without being supervised by doctor (for everything) is basically self hacking. I think most of us do it to some degree.

 

[Chocolove]

Well now. Anybody else feel the need for a cup of chamomile tea after reading this exchange? Or perhaps a bit of the herb kava kava to steady the emotions (but not too much since that could harm the liver)? Ah yes and a bit of the herb bacopa for clarity and good brain function? I find those might be helpful right now. They may or may not help you since your individual needs and biochemistry are different.

I am not going to wait until the end of time for some one to complete all the gold standard scientific studies on each possible nutrient and chemical compound found in them, and then the analysis of how they all react in vitro, in vivo, in various animals and various humans which have separate but different genetic variations that bear on the result of.... We will not live long enough to see all that expensive research done.

And my tea may be different based upon where the plant was grown, what part of the plant was used, when it was harvested, the genetic variant of the plant, the weather it was grown in, the amount of water it got....(try hot peppers grown in hot dry climes...) However my tea has many chemical compounds that the body is genetically wired to handle based on ancestral consumption and many of those compounds are synergistic together.

Of course the plant might have taken up some lead or other harmful compounds, and it certainly doesn't want to be eaten and may have built in chemical weapons to cause future avoidance... However from traditional experience there has been a common theme that this tea might help relax, as does the compound L-theanine found in green tea according to both research and experience.

Wait, I think I need a cupa tea cause I remember it helped me once so maybe now it will again. I'd love to hear what you folks are thinking about taking at this point in the conversation, whether it be from experience or based on study of a scientific review or a long held cultural tradition of diet revered as healthy... Of course at this point I don't want to spend a fortune or a lot of time that I don't have. Who does. That's why it so great to have you guys all here to share.

Thank you Sherpa for taking the time to share your experience with Joe and all the things that helped you, especially since we don't have the time or the money and are too ill and exhausted to go to the ends of the earth, heck maybe the bed is too far away. You may have helped us spend our time and money more wisely. There are a lot of things that may not work for me, but you were up in the wee hours sharing this, or else you were located in a different time zone when you wrote. That was very kind of you.

I have had my share of encounters with folks who dismissed me as lazy because I was ill or exhausted and I didn't enjoy it one bit. I've also met folks with whom I tried to share great research and free samples to try, who flat out refused to look at it or try anything. I poked around trying to find out why they wouldn't and they became greatly annoyed with me, a sad result for both. I don't know why they refused. Could be they were overwhelmed with work and other demands, too tired to focus, too ill to risk trying something that might interfere with their meds or worsen their condition, wary of fraud or scientific studies that just show correlation not causation (Hey umbrellas come out in the rain, maybe they're the cause of rain), any number of things.

From perusing Joe's site, I found that he wants to deal with folks who are more advanced in knowledge and experience and used to working things out, not some one who needs a lot of hand holding, I think was his phrase. That is good to know so that a beginner in this arena can look elsewhere. He may be a bit too brief and not have a comforting bedside manner with perhaps a tad bit of arrogance in his dealings, all of which may indicate the need to find other assistance when such is desired. But Joe's site has a lot of free data with embedded research links that all of us may use and for that treasure I thank him.

Enough with the friendly fire folks. We are all on the same team and I have seen you all help one another. Now I think I'll dive in my bunker, because my tea is about ready. Anybody got honey?

 

[realturbo]

If I may be allowed. I'd like to bring another angle into the discussion - that of looking after our 'inner' health. By this I mean our emotional well-being. This surely has an impact on our physical well-being. I have a long way to go in this respect, but I think I have made some progress over the years. I only remember too well occasions, when on reflection I realise that I have lashed out unfairly when communicating with people, or when I have not been listening to what others are saying. I also remember conversations that have got 'out of hand' on a really minor disagreement, resulting in long lasting breakdown in relationship on a few occasions. But I also remember the time when, even though I felt certain I was not at fault, I decided to ‘give in’ and held out an olive branch and save a really valuable relationship from breaking down permanently. In retrospect, that was the best decision I could have taken, even though, in terms of my emotions it did not feel like it at that time. These are just my thoughts, not directed any one in particular, and with no intention to preach. Chocolove, out of honey, but I have some stevia...

 

[Mij]

Hi @realturbo sorry to hear you encountered emotional stress on top of this illness, there is an "emotional support" section on the forum.
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?forums/emotional-support.39/

This thread was incorrectly started in the "ME/CFS Doctors" section which should probably be moved to alternative therapies.

 

[realturbo]

This thread was incorrectly started in the "ME/CFS Doctors" section which should probably be moved to alternative therapies.

I guess the forum admins will look into that.

Hi @realturbo sorry to hear you encountered emotional stress on top of this illness, there is an "emotional support" section on the forum.
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?forums/emotional-support.39/

I hope you'll agree that we all encounter emotional stress from time to time...

 

[Mij]

@realturbo of course, the whole world encounters emotional stress in their lives from time to time, however, it is not relevant to this thread.

 

[Chocolove]

@realturbo Hey thanks for the stevia offer. But I really need honey cause um...er..well... I scraped my arm when I landed in the bunker and honey would help to heal it.

Sounds like there's still plenty of incoming.

 

[Chocolove]

There is an herbal, actually a tree bark, called Yohimbe which can cause excited irritability.

If it is in your medicine cabinet, you might want to stay away from it for awhile. Please.

Going off it would benefit everyone, (most of all the Yohimbe user).

https://www.drugs.com/npp/yohimbe.html

Adverse Reactions
Clinical trials report few serious adverse reactions. There are case reports of rash, lupus-like syndrome, bronchospasm, severe hypotension, dysrhythmia, heart failure, and death. Increased anxiety, irritability, and excitability have also been reported. Animal studies suggest yohimbine may increase motor activity and seizures at higher dosages. Yohimbe may precipitate psychoses in predisposed individuals.

 

[Mij]

@Chocolove I don't know if you missed the memo but this thread has become completely off topic.

 

[brenda]

@Sherpa thanks
Ignore the negative Nellie's. I am doing the same as you - l went on the autoimmune paleo protocol and had amazing results - after trying many diets. It was not enough to go gluten free, all grains were an issue. My body got into healing mode and was able to guide me into what needed attention.

Then when l plateaued l came across a longevity guru biohacker Dr Jack Kruse, and followed him regarding the circadian rhythm, rising and bedding with the sun, blue blockers on my device at night, avoiding artificial light, grounding on wet grass, sun gazing, main meal half an hour after rising, eating raw seafood, sunbathing as much as possible, thermogenesis or getting cold (he ice bathes) . I also pressure cook my grass fed and finished meat.

The improvement l am most excited about is being able to get back to academic reading which l had to give up years ago, so l can continue my studies.

Plenty of long term sick people out there seeing the same results. I had ME from childhood.