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James Coyne: Should authors declare a conflict of interest...

Cheshire

Senior Member
Messages
1,129
Another thing the PACE authors asked was: "To revise the piece in order to remove all the personal attacks and innuendos."
Where are the personal attacks in Keith Geraghty's piece? It's very factual.

The only part that was less factual and more critical was this one:
However, there are accepted scientific procedures and standards that appear to have been neglected, or bypassed, by the PACE-Trial team. Their actions have arguably caused distress to patients, added a million pounds of additional costs to a publically funded trial and have left us with two versions of ‘truth’ concerning the trial’s findings – the published analysis versus the recent re-analysis. It will be up with others and health authorities to decide which version to accept.
But still not personal attack...

Or do they consider every critics of their work a "personal attack"?
 
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Messages
20
Location
Northern Europe
I have thought this patients conflict of interest before. First there seems to be some merit to it as patient has special interest's in research. But then again if you think it further patient has special interest to get it right. And this is something those cronies don't seem to get. They seem to think this as equal debate which doesn't involve anything else, but for the patient this is not the case. It's unfathomable why patient would have vested interest to divert research which would be detrimental to his/hers health and well being.
 

Stewart

Senior Member
Messages
291
Therefore we ask you:

To include in a revision the author’s potential conflict of interest as a sufferer of the illness he writes about. See: http://iacfsme.org/PDFS/2016MayNesletter/Attachment-08-Dr-Keith-Geraghty-Doing-CFS-research.aspx

"We're not alleging that the author has any conflict of interest at present, but as he has the illness he's writing about he has the *potential* to develop a conflict of interest - at some point in the future, through some currently unforeseeable sequence of events - and we think he should be made to declare that now, even though we have no idea what that form that CoI will take (or even if it will ever come to pass). In the meantime, we expect the scientific community to carry on turning a blind eye to our *actual* conflicts of interest - which we occasionally don't even bother to declare."

----------------------------------------------------

It's mildly depressing to see that George Davey-Smith is apparently now joining in with the 'anti-science' denigration. I guess it just goes to prove (as if further proof were needed) that the members of the British scientific establishment are always willing to throw their commitment to scientific objectivity under the bus when the reputation of their friends and colleagues is on the line. If this is in any way illustrative of the rigorous methodological approach that he would bring to the table as part of the MEGA team, then that's just one more reason to hope and pray they never get the funding they need.
 
Messages
48
hello all, yes the PACE authors displeased with my PACE GATE editorial did the following

1. phoned my University and made direct complaints to my dept head
2. put pressure on the editor of the Jr of Health Psych to retract (how funny) part of my editorial
3. pressure the editor to get me to disclose my health status as a 'conflict of interest'

Standing with you, @Keith Geraghty. :hug::hug::hug:

Only figuratively speaking, of course, given orthostatic intolerance. ;)

Looking forward to your next papers.:thumbsup:
 
Messages
48
Oxford Professor of Primary Care and working GP - Trish Greenlagh had a fall and needed a hip replacement surgery. She reviewed the evidence and argued with her own doctors about the best treatment. She then made her experience a key part of many of her talks on 'Evidence-based Medicine' and she has written a number of books on EBM, recounting her own experience often. I would follow this woman's lead anyday v the PACE trial authors.

Watch her talk she mentions herself from 8 mins on :

Homepage: https://www.phc.ox.ac.uk/team/trish-greenhalgh

Her twitter photo t-shirt says "I am more than my omics"

https://twitter.com/trishgreenhalgh?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author

Thanks for posting this, Keith, loved it. My favourite bit:

“Once these classification schemes become enshrined in recommendations and guidelines, they ossify and reproduce our assumptions and prejudices. Furthermore, it makes those assumptions and prejudices scientific.” (15:00)
 

boolybooly

Senior Member
Messages
161
Location
Northants UK
If I make a comment I will usually say where I am coming from.

For example when commenting about ME being treated innappropriately I will say I depend on UK benefits to live so that people realise, how research shapes the way people look at ME, has a material impact on my life.

There is a dynamic of vulnerability, which makes it difficult to admit if you feel you might be humiliated or belittled or otherwise victimised by admitting the truth, also that it might be used against you to say you are biased. So I feel one has to be careful of that.

It is very humbling to have to admit to living on benefits and attitudes towards benefits claimants in the media of late have made that much harder, while the resulting increase in disability hate crime in the UK can make it positively dangerous in some situations, so you need to be streetwise because of this imho. But on the internet, after choosing your venue carefully, if you are going to say something then I feel its best to be up front and honest because secretiveness will make you look far worse in the long run if found out.

I feel it is best to be honest, because it shows integrity, shows relevance of the subject matter and adds credibility and weight.

If you have a valid case then being straight with your audience can only strengthen it.
 

trishrhymes

Senior Member
Messages
2,158
I watched this talk this afternoon. While I find most of it acceptable, even some parts very good, I was a little bemused by her dismissal of personalised medicine.

'Personalized medicine, also termed precision medicine, is a medical procedure that separates patients into different groups—with medical decisions, practices, interventions and/or products being tailored to the individual patient based on their predicted response or risk of disease'.

This seems to me to be a good thing, and in a sense what she was talking about in her own case - taking more care to define which group she belongs to before deciding how to treat her neck injury, for example.

Maybe I misunderstood. Please correct me if so.

Otherwise, what she seemed to be saying was how I would hope medicine should be practised - listen to the patient's story and examine all the evidence, and don't jump to premature conclusions about what treatment is appropriate. Seems sad to have to tell doctors something so basic.

She mentioned at the end her second lecture developing the topic - that doesn't seem to be available. Anyone seen it?

Anyone read her book? It's called 'How to implement evidence based healthcare', and came out in May, according to her on twitter.

Eek, maybe not, it's over £30 on Amazon.
 
Messages
724
Location
Yorkshire, England
I got the impression that she was more for Personalised medicine than against, and for applying interpretations, judgements and guidelines from the general to the personal, Trish.

I think that was her point early on about how the bike crash was interpreted as a 'fall' and that with her age changing she went from a healthy athletic 54 year old to an guideline subject of 'older woman who had a fall, and must need a guide rail in her home'.

I know I'm suffering a bit from the recent cognitive onslaught of GETSET and 'Julie' and 'Conflict of interest' , so wouldn't be surprised if others are too :hug:
 

Kati

Patient in training
Messages
5,497
Keith Laws left a very insightful comment on James Coyne's blog:

On first reading this, I was a little startled …it would certainly represent a new and interesting departure for scientists to propose that being the sufferer of an illness constitutes a potential conflict of interest.
It would seem to have many possible implications

1) it strikes me that this argument might rule-out patient-rating data from the PACE trial itself –CFS/ME patients are replying as ‘sufferers’ and so, might constitute a potential CoI?
2) it would seem to undermine the positive testimonials given by CFS/ME patients during the PACE trial- would this constitute a potential CoI?
3) this naïve and shockingly ‘ableist’ view implies that people might only comment on research (in an unconflicted way) if they are… ‘well’. I then wonder about people who have CFS/ME, but not yet diagnosed or those in remission …or perhaps, only those who are reported to have been ‘cured by GET and/or CBT?
3) I have never seen this curious argument made anywhere else in medicine and presumably has major consequences for the ‘no decision about me without me’ approach advocated by NHS – which presumably puts the PACE trial authors at odds with fundamental values proposed by the NHS; and the involvement of patients on NICE committees – presumably they would need to declare conflicts of interest? What about if they have close family members with the disorder?
4) sadly, such discriminatory views do seem to be quite consistent with the somewhat dismissive attitude of the NICE committee toward the CFS/ME survey data they requested for their own guideline (see Laws 2017 http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1359105317710246)
5) such a view has implications for how we would have to view all patients in the context of how they describe/construct their experience of their ‘illness’ – it seems akin to importing the
‘lack of insight’ model from schizophrenia/ psychosis into this arena – presumably the first stage of getting better would be to acknowledge one’s conflict of interest i.,e, that one is ill
6) if the PACE trial was as effective as claimed, then perhaps some might claim that a little exercise or a chat could ‘cure’ conflicts of interest
7) finally, I understand that Keith Geraghty has not hidden being a sufferer, but this approach raises the possible ‘outing’ of sufferers and the privacy afforded regarding health conditions and additional financial issues e.g. impact on insurance, work, colleagues, family

Well worth visiting James' blog and liking his comment. I hope @Keith Geraghty is around!
 

pattismith

Senior Member
Messages
3,941
Pr Garth Nicholson found Mycoplasma Fermentens in the blood of Autist and CFS patients...
His first involvment in its researches were done after his daughter came back ill from the Golf War, and after himself and his wife got the illness, one more "conflict of interest" side effect that impaired his views on the disease!
The fact that he cured himself, his wife and his daughter and many soldiers coming back ill is such an unacceptable thing!

And David Wheldon who cured his wife that every doctors had diagnosed with MS, by giving her an antibiotic protocol...Another side effect of this bad conflict of interest they are talking about.
It is surely easier to discredit all these courageous people than to do real scientific researches about our diseases...
 

Cheshire

Senior Member
Messages
1,129
I also think that, in their crooked mind, declaring being patients as a COI could be a way to undermine @Keith Geraghty 's credibility.
For them, ME is a mental illness, patients are irrational and neurotic. Everything they say is nonsense and the expression of their pathological thoughts. Their critics of the wonderful PACE protocole is not sound science discusion, but reflects their insanity.


Thanks @Kati for sharing @Keith Laws great comment.
 
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user9876

Senior Member
Messages
4,556
We really dodged a problem with MEGA if Davey Smith is willing to defend the PACE trial. He probably would have let Crawley abuse the data.

There is an important and different point which is that he is willing to accept bad methodology which leads to meaningless results. And he will try to push to allow that behind the scenes and close down debate. That makes for a very bad project.