Is this salicylate sensitivity?

alex3619

Senior Member
Messages
13,798
Likes
37,566
Location
Logan, Queensland, Australia
Hmm, what matters is if its extra virgin. There might be specific "flavours", but I have not tried them. They should not make a difference. See https://cobramestate.com.au/our-oils

Olive oil is unpleasant more often than not if its low quality. Its high quality that is needed. In Italy they have oil tastings much like vineyards have wine tastings. The best oils usually taste pretty good. The poor oils do not. The worst tasting EVOO I ever had was Moro. I threw the bottle out. Bad tasting oil might indicate something is wrong with it, including that it has gone off.

Some foodie (epicurian) stores occasionally do limited oil tastings. These are stores that supply quality oil to restaurants.

One way to test it if you do not want to sip a part teaspoon is to dip some fresh bread in it, gluten free if that is required. Compare that to your Spanish brand. If you can identify a difference, which to me is obvious with some of the oils, then you will know what not to buy in future, and how to spot low quality oil.

If you do not like the taste after all that, I have several suggestions. For a lighter oil with similar properties you could also try cold pressed avocado or macadamia oils. I particularly like the macadamia on popcorn, its fantastic. Olive oil is better with tomato dishes, and avocado for Mexican and salads.
 

outdamnspot

Senior Member
Messages
893
Likes
678
Hmm, what matters is if its extra virgin. There might be specific "flavours", but I have not tried them. They should not make a difference. See https://cobramestate.com.au/our-oils

Olive oil is unpleasant more often than not if its low quality. Its high quality that is needed. In Italy they have oil tastings much like vineyards have wine tastings. The best oils usually taste pretty good. The poor oils do not. The worst tasting EVOO I ever had was Moro. I threw the bottle out. Bad tasting oil might indicate something is wrong with it, including that it has gone off.

Some foodie (epicurian) stores occasionally do limited oil tastings. These are stores that supply quality oil to restaurants.

One way to test it if you do not want to sip a part teaspoon is to dip some fresh bread in it, gluten free if that is required. Compare that to your Spanish brand. If you can identify a difference, which to me is obvious with some of the oils, then you will know what not to buy in future, and how to spot low quality oil.

If you do not like the taste after all that, I have several suggestions. For a lighter oil with similar properties you could also try cold pressed avocado or macadamia oils. I particularly like the macadamia on popcorn, its fantastic. Olive oil is better with tomato dishes, and avocado for Mexican and salads.
When I looked on the site, it said that 'light' simply means that olives with a lighter flavor were selected. I guess since I'm so hypersensitive to everything now I was paranoid there might be a difference in the manufacturing process that could affect me.

The taste was pleasant and better than the Spanish oil, but that was a 'robust' flavor (though it tasted quite acrid). In terms of a negative reaction to imported oils, do you believe they might be rancid or that they could be diluted with other oils like canola?
 

alex3619

Senior Member
Messages
13,798
Likes
37,566
Location
Logan, Queensland, Australia
The taste was pleasant and better than the Spanish oil, but that was a 'robust' flavor (though it tasted quite acrid). In terms of a negative reaction to imported oils, do you believe they might be rancid or that they could be diluted with other oils like canola?
There was an investigation some years back. Both problems were found. The Moro I threw out was rancid.
 

outdamnspot

Senior Member
Messages
893
Likes
678
There was an investigation some years back. Both problems were found. The Moro I threw out was rancid.
By the way, you also mentioned having a salicylate sensitivity, but olive oil is listed as a high salicylate food. I know you said abstaining completely made things worse, so a) did you have to titrate the amount of olive oil upwards over time, and b) do you think the net benefits of olive oil on health work to reduce the sensitivity (therefore meaning the salicylates in olive oil itself may be irrelevant)?

Just curious because it's been a few hours but my reaction following consumption has mirrored my reaction to other salicylate foods, e.g. weakness, depression, thirst/dehydration etc.
 

alex3619

Senior Member
Messages
13,798
Likes
37,566
Location
Logan, Queensland, Australia
so a) did you have to titrate the amount of olive oil upwards over time, and b) do you think the net benefits of olive oil on health work to reduce the sensitivity (therefore meaning the salicylates in olive oil itself may be irrelevant)?
It was titrated. The thing with EVOO is you only need a tiny amount. The bottles typically have a spout that prevents just pouring it in like other oils. I also started EVOO some years after slowly and steadily increasing my salicylate intake. I do not know to what extent that is necessary. So I use the minimum amount necessary.

So for example you cannot deep fry with EVOO. You would not want to for other reasons.

If you are reacting to that small amount your sensitivity is still high. This is what happens with complete avoidance.

Getting enough salicylate to not trigger symptoms but doing so consistently is important to avoid becoming over sensitive. Avoidance diets lead to really intense reactions when you do come in contact, even with perfumes.

This is because the body's own detox paths come into play.

It might also be linked to glutathione status. Low glutathione is a big risk for salicylate sensitivity, as glutathione is the primary regulator of the desaturase enzyme status. Adequate glutathione improves enzyme function, and so that offers another path to treat salicylate sensitivity. I think vitamin C and perhaps zinc and magnesium are also important, but not nearly as much as glutathione. Many of us are glutathione deficient and have too much oxidative stress.

I should probably try switching to something else for a while myself, its been a long time since I last stopped taking it, and I need to recheck my symptoms. Switching things in and out is the only way I know to do this.
 

alex3619

Senior Member
Messages
13,798
Likes
37,566
Location
Logan, Queensland, Australia
I am sorry if anyone has had a bad reaction to EVOO.

Macadamia and avocado oil also contain moderate salicylates, though not as high as EVOO.

There are no oils that are not problematic with salicylate sensitivity, even the low salicylate ones aside from possibly one. It might turn out that butter is a better choice, or ghee.

I was looking through the tables again and if you can get it, and I have never seen it, cashew nut oil might be about the best choice. They list cashews but not the oil, so I cannot be sure.

Another thing about these oils, aside from macadamia oil which does not do this much, is they supply small amounts of omega 3 and 6. Its hard to overdose on omega 3 and 6 with these fats.

Salicylate sensitivity is not an allergy. Its a chemical sensitivity that depends on the balance of your detox paths, plus certain nutrients like glutathione. There are undoubtedly genetic issues as well. You can consume up to a certain amount, which is hard to quantify and is probably variable, without reaction. Once over that every little bit will induce a reaction until your detox paths are restored.

The first line of defence is the gut. Gut bacteria start detox. The second is the liver. Liver enzymes can detox salicylates. The third is your desaturase status. Glutathione is the most important factor determining that. It increases activity of the desaturase enzymes. Like most treatments you can take too much of glutathione promoting nutrients, but its hard to do.

To have a salicylate sensitivity reaction every stage has to be compromised, or overwhelmed.

I know there are more modern treatments that look at restoring liver detox for salicylates. I have not investigated those. Gut detox is difficult. I know of no way to improve it. Desaturase status will benefit from tolerated fruit, tolerated vegetables, protein and NAC, or N-acetyl-cysteine. Treating methylation paths, for those who are considering that, might also help.

The reason it hits so fast sometimes is the desaturase enzymes are on the path to making hormones with a half life of only seconds. So within seconds of salicylate entering cells the body slows its making of these hormones, and seconds later you start running out. There may be other biochemical reactions that have been discovered, the salicylate-desaturase link was found in 1984, but I have not investigated those recently.
 

outdamnspot

Senior Member
Messages
893
Likes
678
It was titrated. The thing with EVOO is you only need a tiny amount. The bottles typically have a spout that prevents just pouring it in like other oils. I also started EVOO some years after slowly and steadily increasing my salicylate intake. I do not know to what extent that is necessary. So I use the minimum amount necessary.

So for example you cannot deep fry with EVOO. You would not want to for other reasons.

If you are reacting to that small amount your sensitivity is still high. This is what happens with complete avoidance.

Getting enough salicylate to not trigger symptoms but doing so consistently is important to avoid becoming over sensitive. Avoidance diets lead to really intense reactions when you do come in contact, even with perfumes.

This is because the body's own detox paths come into play.

It might also be linked to glutathione status. Low glutathione is a big risk for salicylate sensitivity, as glutathione is the primary regulator of the desaturase enzyme status. Adequate glutathione improves enzyme function, and so that offers another path to treat salicylate sensitivity. I think vitamin C and perhaps zinc and magnesium are also important, but not nearly as much as glutathione. Many of us are glutathione deficient and have too much oxidative stress.

I should probably try switching to something else for a while myself, its been a long time since I last stopped taking it, and I need to recheck my symptoms. Switching things in and out is the only way I know to do this.
Ok, that makes sense. Since I'm on a Keto diet and liberally need to consume fat, I got in a 'bad' habit a year ago: because consuming whole foods fatigues me, I would typically pour a mug of almond milk and then pour in oil until I can see it at the surface. I did that with the EVOO, so might have had 4-5 tablespoons all at once.

I was reading posts from other severe patients on here and it seems like a devastating cycle can arise where you get gut issues (on top of adrenal issues, MCAS etc.) and nutrient absorption is affected, which will exacerbate salicylate sensitivity. But I'm in a position where I can no longer tolerate herbs/gut treatments, probiotics, supplements etc., so seem to lose more and more ground, and more and more foods become intolerable. As I said I'm on Keto and need a lot of fat and if most fats are high salicylate, that becomes a problem. A year ago, even severe, I could still eat avocado, most oils, nuts etc. and now I can't.

I do take Vitamin C, and also do daily coffee enemas, which supposedly improve glutathione status, and those are the only two things that have helped me.
 

alex3619

Senior Member
Messages
13,798
Likes
37,566
Location
Logan, Queensland, Australia
Needing keto and avoiding problems with salicylates when you have ME is worse than a catch-22. Its really hard. About the only fat I suspect is safe-ish would be cashews. There are probably others. Nothing else is safe for one reason or another. Either the fat is bad for salicylates or its bad for ME. Can you tolerate any non-keto diets? I am on higher protein but only rarely eat a lot of fat, usually as a treat and not a regular intake. We also need tolerated greens and other vegetables. How do you tolerate those?

I find my biggest issue is food prep and cooking ... I often do not have the energy to do it, and am struggling all the time to eat healthily, and usually failing these days. In my case I have to control blood sugar and deal with ME and salicylates. More often than not my standard meal is now chicken strips and hummus. Alternatively I eat chicken strips and oven fries, but less often and with more restriction because of the carbs. Whenever I have energy I cook something with lots of vegetables. I know how to eat better but even with pacing this is all I can manage.

Omega-6 fats are even in butter and full fat dairy. There is nowhere to escape. We do need some, but its unlikely that we can tolerate a high intake without aggravating ME. Edible linseed oil (it has been rebranded but it escapes me just now) is one possibility, but I tested that extensively in 1993 and it did not take much for me to reach my limit.

These sorts of tangled messes are not uncommon in ME. I have increasingly severe high blood pressure, and also severe orthostatic intolerance. Try explaining that to most doctors.
 

outdamnspot

Senior Member
Messages
893
Likes
678
Needing keto and avoiding problems with salicylates when you have ME is worse than a catch-22. Its really hard. About the only fat I suspect is safe-ish would be cashews. There are probably others. Nothing else is safe for one reason or another. Either the fat is bad for salicylates or its bad for ME. Can you tolerate any non-keto diets? I am on higher protein but only rarely eat a lot of fat, usually as a treat and not a regular intake. We also need tolerated greens and other vegetables. How do you tolerate those?

I find my biggest issue is food prep and cooking ... I often do not have the energy to do it, and am struggling all the time to eat healthily, and usually failing these days. In my case I have to control blood sugar and deal with ME and salicylates. More often than not my standard meal is now chicken strips and hummus. Alternatively I eat chicken strips and oven fries, but less often and with more restriction because of the carbs. Whenever I have energy I cook something with lots of vegetables. I know how to eat better but even with pacing this is all I can manage.

Omega-6 fats are even in butter and full fat dairy. There is nowhere to escape. We do need some, but its unlikely that we can tolerate a high intake without aggravating ME. Edible linseed oil (it has been rebranded but it escapes me just now) is one possibility, but I tested that extensively in 1993 and it did not take much for me to reach my limit.

These sorts of tangled messes are not uncommon in ME. I have increasingly severe high blood pressure, and also severe orthostatic intolerance. Try explaining that to most doctors.
Before I switched to Keto, when I first got severe over 2 years ago, I was getting severe reactive hypoglycemia and basically having to eat a full meal every 2 hours (and gained about 30kg in the process). For that reason, I would be hesitant to ever stop it, because it wasn't really possible to live in that state. But these food sensitivities are becoming problematic .. I always think it can't get worse with ME, and then it does ..

I'm able to have green salads. I was eating spinach and kale regularly a while ago and think it was making me worse (oxalates, plus raw Kale's effect on thyroid function) .. but should maybe try reintroducing cooked kale.

The frustrating thing is sometimes there seems to be no rhyme or reason to it. I was reacting severely to canola oil, it seems, but last week I had two of the best days in recent memory when I inadvertantly had a mix of canola and olive oil. Canola oil alone made me a lot worse. And the past two days -- with olive oil consumed alone -- have been awful.

Last night, I measured out the EVOO instead of free-pouring, and had 3 tablespoons in milk. Do you think that's still too much for someone potentially salicylate sensitive? Do you recall how much you were having initially?
 

alex3619

Senior Member
Messages
13,798
Likes
37,566
Location
Logan, Queensland, Australia
I probably cook a full meal with less than a tablespoon of EVOO.

The thing about sensitivities is its dosage and tolerance related. A bit means no symptoms. A bit more means some symptoms. A bit more means severe symptoms.

A corollary of this is that you can eat high salicylate foods but in much lower quantities. Tiny amounts of spices sometimes provoke no reactions, a bit more causes a crash.

Perhaps I should relate this to another topic. I have wheat sensitivity. Sometimes I can eat a lot, sometimes almost none, and have a reaction. The food is one half of the equation, and whatever chemical I am reacting to might be in varying amounts. The other side is in the body. We cannot even see that, we can only notice when we react.

I am unlikely to eat even two tablespoons of EVOO per day, over the whole day, and I am no longer a severely reacting patient.

I am however planning to try peanut oil for a while ... I am not happy with it, but I can use it to substitute while I try to figure out if any of my current symptoms are salicylate symptoms. It might be that I got rid of many symptoms but not all of them.

I am particularly concerned about cold pressed peanut oil. I am not convinced it can be considered safe. That means heat processed peanut oil as my substitute, and that has its own problems.
 

outdamnspot

Senior Member
Messages
893
Likes
678
I probably cook a full meal with less than a tablespoon of EVOO.

The thing about sensitivities is its dosage and tolerance related. A bit means no symptoms. A bit more means some symptoms. A bit more means severe symptoms.

A corollary of this is that you can eat high salicylate foods but in much lower quantities. Tiny amounts of spices sometimes provoke no reactions, a bit more causes a crash.

Perhaps I should relate this to another topic. I have wheat sensitivity. Sometimes I can eat a lot, sometimes almost none, and have a reaction. The food is one half of the equation, and whatever chemical I am reacting to might be in varying amounts. The other side is in the body. We cannot even see that, we can only notice when we react.

I am unlikely to eat even two tablespoons of EVOO per day, over the whole day, and I am no longer a severely reacting patient.

I am however planning to try peanut oil for a while ... I am not happy with it, but I can use it to substitute while I try to figure out if any of my current symptoms are salicylate symptoms. It might be that I got rid of many symptoms but not all of them.

I am particularly concerned about cold pressed peanut oil. I am not convinced it can be considered safe. That means heat processed peanut oil as my substitute, and that has its own problems.
That makes sense. If I do try the EVOO again, I'll start with maybe around 1tbsp.

I really appreciate you helping me and don't want to consume too much of your energy, but I stumbled across this and was wondering what you think: https://www.selfhacked.com/blog/mct-oil-may-create-food-allergies/, https://fixyourgut.com/how-ingesting-mct-oil-could-be-making-you-ill/

I don't have the know-how to fully understand it or whether it applies to my situation. However, I can say that the only major change I've made since this sudden decline w/ new food intolerances has been to consume pure MCT oil. in my coffee. Prior to that, I would have two cups with some coconut oil. After discovering that MCT oil had much more pronounced effects on my mood, I started putting it in the second cup; I grew tolerant to the energy increase, but it still gives me a mood improvement I don't get from coconut oil.

It may be a coincidence, but this has also been the period when I've had to cut out nuts, avocado, oils etc. so I wonder if there is a correlation. Then again, it could just be an unrelated decline. I'd be remiss to cut out the MCT oil, because of how it helps my mood, but maybe it would be worth going without it for a bit. FWIW, the MCT I use now is C8 + C10 .. I used a pure C8 one in the past and preferred it, but it was expensive.
 

outdamnspot

Senior Member
Messages
893
Likes
678
Unfortunately, I just can't make sense of this anymore :(

There seemed to be a correlation between my ingestion of oils and feeling worse (with Canola triggering the most severe crashes), and initially cutting them out made me feel better.

However, yesterday I consumed no oil and woke up feeling crashed again today :( All I'm eating is meat/chicken, eggs, peanut butter and unsweetened almond milk (and taking Vitamin C for sleep).
 
Messages
95
Likes
29
I do take Vitamin C, and also do daily coffee enemas, which supposedly improve glutathione status, and those are the only two things that have helped me.
I have the same issues. Can't tolerate oils or herbs. I am wondering if you can do coffee enemas if you are also Sulfur intolerant?
 
Last edited by a moderator: