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    Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of, and finding treatments for, complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia, long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.

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Is there any positive upcoming news???

edawg81

Senior Member
Messages
142
Location
Upstate, NY
My primary care doctor who seems to recognize we exist says he has one other patient like me.

So yes: where are they all? following other bread crumbs, working and faking it still?

I prob had MECFS for years and didn’t know it. Till i got so sick I couldn’t even function. Then I was diagnosed and found my way to the MECFS community. Theres a lot of functioning people walking around with mild MECFS and probably don’t even know it and don’t know what to do, and probably don’t care, until you life is put on hold.
 

Hopeful1976

Senior Member
Messages
345
2 million people in the USA yet a handful appear on the worlds largest CFS forum..
Something not adding up...from a global perspective where are all these sick people....do they not use the internet?
Of course he found lactate in brain....we are generating it for fun from a mangled PDH pathway.
There is a heightened stress state in mitochondria.....shut down at earliest sign of trouble. They are sitting on knife edge ready to react...
.Food triggers...viral....alcohol....adrenaline surges......LPS....

Sad too because its.nearly 3 years now since I first read one of the most promising papers from Ron and so many CFS leads end up petering out......

https://www.meaction.net/2016/06/04/ron-davis-errors-metabolism/

Some day.....
I've been reminiscing the same - 3 years since I read too about ron's findings - nano needle, something in the blood ect ect.... and nothing... I actually feel lost, I'm actually feeling that they'll never be able to help. And this has destroyed me. At the moment, I have no hope.
 

junkcrap50

Senior Member
Messages
1,333
I prob had MECFS for years and didn’t know it. Till i got so sick I couldn’t even function. Then I was diagnosed and found my way to the MECFS community. Theres a lot of functioning people walking around with mild MECFS and probably don’t even know it and don’t know what to do, and probably don’t care, until you life is put on hold.
I agree. I was one of them for 6 years. I thought I just had burnout. Most of the mild people probably think they just have burn out or too much stress. Or they're able to recover to some degree with weekends, vacations, or school breaks.

EDIT: Should also add a many likely have a misdiagnosis of depression.
 
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maybe some day

Senior Member
Messages
775
Location
West coast

ljimbo423

Senior Member
Messages
4,705
Location
United States, New Hampshire
Thanks for the link @maybe some day. This is from that link-

Younger found lactate – a product of anaerobic metabolism – widely distributed across the brains of people with ME/CFS. He opened a chart showing an amazing array of lactate-engorged brain regions. He picked out a few: the insula, hippocampus, thalamus, and putamen, which had particularly high levels.

They were virtually the same regions the Japanese had found in their 2015 study. The fact that the temperature increases overlapped with the lactate increases provided further confidence that Younger had identified some key areas.

The Anterior cingulate cortex, in particular, which Younger called “the seat of suffering” in the brain, showed up in spades. It’s associated with a lot of nasty symptoms (malaise, fatigue and pain) and it’s shown up in both ME/CFS and fibromyalgia studies in the past.

This quote is about the Anterior cingulate cortex and how it regulates blood pressure and heart rate- from a different source-

These results support the hypothesis that the anterior cingulate cortex regulates blood pressure reactions to behavioral stressors in humans.

To date, a number of functional neuroimaging studies have demonstrated that stressor-evoked changes in heart rate and heart rate variability correlate with the concurrent activation of the cingulate cortex

I find it intriguing that the Anterior cingulate cortex is not only associated with pain, fatigue and malaise but also blood pressure and heart rate.

Which could possibly mean a cause for POTS as well as the pain, fatigue and malaise in ME/CFS, is brain inflammation. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2246096/
 
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junkcrap50

Senior Member
Messages
1,333
2 million people in the USA yet a handful appear on the worlds largest CFS forum..
Something not adding up...from a global perspective where are all these sick people....do they not use the internet?
I agree with your sentiment and often thought the same thing. But it's hard to know how experts have come up with these numbers (for any disease really) -- not that I'm doubting the #s.

Got to think roughly half probably don't know they have ME/CFS. Some small percent don't use the computer much or even think to use the internet for community/connecting, besides just researching & googling. Some small percent just follow their doctor's orders and don't do any research on their disease (I know of a patient and family like that).

Also, it doesn't help that forums.phoenixrising.me (PhoenixRising) basically split in two and a large percentage of people (half?) left to s4me.info (Science for ME).

Plus, there are large Facebook communities of ME/CFS & its many symptoms (like POTS, EDS, MCAS/MCS, Autism, & other groups that overlap me/cfs). I don't have Facebook, so I never see info & discussion there. Plus, there is sort of a Twitter community for ME/CFS - hashtags for our disease/symptoms & goo people to follow (like @JaimeS & others). I don't have Twitter either & only go on twitter to view live tweeting of conferences by patients/individuals via hashtages or certain people. Also, Yahoo Groups & communities are still pretty popular somehow. They were an early type of social community online orgs/threads/rooms and still are popular, despite Yahoo.com kind of being a zombie company & no one uses it anymore. Curezone exists, but I don't know how popular it is or who uses it.

Also, some people who may not know they qualify for or have ME/CFS and are only aware of their primary symptoms & thus only focus on that (think POTS, MCAS, etc).

Jen Brea seems to be very connected across many different platforms, so she'd know where else these people are. Would be nice if they could all be directed and found in 1 location.
 

Badpack

Senior Member
Messages
382
For me the adrenergic and muscarinic autoantibodies and maybe the small Fiber is a better explanation then these model!
All now published data confirmed that :)
 

Rufous McKinney

Senior Member
Messages
13,389
a lot of functioning people walking around with mild MECFS

Or they've come up with a name, or notion, and it works to explain some of it for a while...like a friend just told me clearly I had Adrenal Fatigue. I wouldn't doubt it, but don't describe this whole thing in those terms.

My husband says everyone is living on coffee. More than one cup would: annihilate me.

Worked in government, people kinda disappear and you hear about: Off on Stress Leave. Sometimes they don't seem to return. Due to privacy issues, often one has no idea whats going on, of course concern.....

I fell, after a 40 year environmental career. Its like many tours of duty.

somehow we need to cease and desist the term: Chronic Fatigue Syndrome- but yet it never stops being: the translation.
 

Belbyr

Senior Member
Messages
602
Location
Memphis
For me the adrenergic and muscarinic autoantibodies and maybe the small Fiber is a better explanation then these model!
All now published data confirmed that :)

Problem with the antibodies is they don't show all that much higher than the controls but I would agree the ones that are off the charts need to be looked at. Now I would agree, anyone with small fiber neuropathy is suffering from an autoimmune condition that is probably not ME/CFS.
 

msf

Senior Member
Messages
3,650
As far as there being a consensus on the microbiome--if you mean "somethings wrong with it" sure... as far as there being a specific consensus about which species are missing or w/e, I'm not yet aware of that being the case. "something's wrong with the microbiome" is way too broad to really be meaningful, given how the microbiome is probably implicated in every disease process

That's a bit disingenuous in my opinion, why would Lipkin, Hanson, Armstrong, De Meirleir etc all put most of their funding into researching the gut if it was implicated in every disease? If you can show my abnormal levels of CD14 in every disease then you would have more of a point.
 

msf

Senior Member
Messages
3,650
Plus I have gone from housebound to nearly fully functional by following this thread of ideas starting with the gut, which I doubt anyone could say who has leprosy, for instance.
 

msf

Senior Member
Messages
3,650
Viruses are, broadly speaking, part of the microbiome. Wikipedia defines microbiome as:

A microbiota is an "ecological community of commensal, symbiotic and pathogenic microorganisms"[1][2] found in and on all multicellular organisms studied to date from plants to animals. A microbiota includes bacteria, archaea, protists, fungi and viruses.

Viruses are also known to modulate gut health and the microbiome in various way, a fascinating example is described in this article. It is incredibly complicated to understand all the interactions going on in the microbiome, so I think we can't rule any aspect out.

All very true, but I didn't ask the question you seem to be answering, which is are viruses part of the microbiome. In fact you were kind of making my point for me by highlighting that the microbiome is made up of more than just viruses.
 

msf

Senior Member
Messages
3,650
with the amount of experimentation clinicians and patients do, I would think that if a serendipitous discovery was going to happen, it would've by now

Haha, I guess you don't read the treatment section of this website, there have been lots and they are for me the raison d'etre of this website, fun as it is to espouse pet theories and so on (which I have done too). From this website (i.e. other patients and doctors serendipitous discoveries) I have found Trazodone, DCA, ALA, and BCAA. All of these have helped a lot. That isn't bad considering I haven't been anywhere near as dedicated at trying and researching stuff as people like Hip.

I do agree about the activism though, but I think unfortunately the best most people with ME can manage is a lie in protest in their own room. If someone organised something in London I would definitely attend though.
 
Messages
25
I know that many of us are bedridden and severely ill and cant do much to change things, but in general I don't think acknowledging the pace of research being inadequate realistically is "gloomy". Because people can change the pace of research by demanding government funds research. All it would take is fifteen people going into the NIH and blocking the doors in some kind of coordinated protest, somehow get media to cover it with some kind of tip to the press or other theatrics, to get the ball rolling.

No hope in our lifetimes unless something changes. There may be people that will fight for the change more effectively. It seems like most ME/CFS orgs, even the really good ones, are focused on the "inside" strategy of lobbying, talking to people in congress--yes there are protests, once a year, but not very vigorous protests. Again, all that would have to change is some aggressive protests in congress or nih buildings... that happen to get picked up by the media

Hi all, I for one have been motivated by @debored13 's call for action to write my first post, after lurking here for the two years since I started suspecting ME/CFS and got diagnosed. You can check out my intro post here: https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/still-processing-in-boston-and-nyc-former-lurker.75698/ :)

I agree wholeheartedly that more aggressive direct action, within a social movement model of community organizing, is the fastest and most certain way for us to accelerate research findings exponentially. It could also increase public awareness and understanding to a level that would transform our interactions with doctors, employers (when applicable...), families, loved ones, etc. (Imagine people just "getting it" when you tell them you have ME/CFS like they do when you reveal a cancer or MS diagnosis!)

I've got some thoughts on this front, particularly drawing from the PhD research into AIDS art and activism that I was doing before having to take a medical leave of absence last summer (which may unfortunately lead to dropping out officially if things don't turn up soon for me).

I do agree about the activism though, but I think unfortunately the best most people with ME can manage is a lie in protest in their own room.

Even though many of us, myself included, cant imagine having the energy to rally or protest or occupy spaces, let alone plan a mass action using these tactics, I think we should focus on what we *can* do to initiate and move forward such an agenda. Starting with some online brainstorming within this community of smart, passionate, caring, and multi-talented people! Let's start throwing out ideas (maybe in a new thread) of actions we *can* imagine ourselves taking (with some able co-conspirators) that could still have the same kind of resonance as more physically active forms of direct action. If we're creative, I think we can turn our inability to be physically present into a symbolic testament to our condition, along the lines of the #MillionsMissing campaign with the empty shoes which I think is a great starting point for conceiving of some more confrontational and disruptive (and thus attention-demanding) tactics.

One image I have in mind, admittedly on the more radical / logistically complicated fantasy side, is of burning a set of mattresses outside a relevant building at a relevant time--Congress on ME/CFS awareness day? NIH during a budgetary meeting?--to represent how we are wasting away in bed, often in agony, while the broader community is unaware and/or not doing anything about it. Assuming firefighters would put them out fairly quickly, that itself could become part of the intended action, showing the contrast between that appropriate societal response to a public threat--respond quickly and powerfully (via fire control) to prevent a major public health crisis--versus the languid and feeble governmental approach to seeking a solution to ME/CFS.

Another idea, equally logistically complicated but a bit less dangerous/illegal(?), is playing off the AIDS memorial quilt project, but with each patient decorating a mattress instead (the symbol that keeps coming to mind given how much time I spend there!) with everything in their life they have lost or given up or never achieved. It could symbolize how it can feel like we are in a state of "living death" where we are having to mourn and grieve our *own* former and potential lives/selves, instead of those of deceased loved ones, from the confines of a mattress. People with ME/CFS could decorate and contribute their testimonial mattresses (or more realistically, pieces of cloth that look like mattresses, or perhaps bedspreads) on their own time-frame, and then we could spread then out on the Mall in Washington (and elsewhere around the country/world, apologies for my US-centrism!) at key moments in a direct call-back to the AIDS quilt, since we hope to replicate the kind of research funding and advances AIDS activists won through direct action.

I admit this is pie in the sky dreaming, and will say that I can't imagine personally doing the work to make anything like this happen! Personally I am a better instigator/brainstormer/planner than doer, and of course all of us have severe energy and capacity and resource limitations. But my past experiences in organizing have taught me that great things are possible when many people pitch in in whatever small or large ways they can, especially when you link up with individual and institutional allies, and I think that within the vast and increasingly organized ME/CFS patient and activist and ally community there are enough of us with enough life experience and professional contact networks and latent talent/skills/passion/etc that we could collectively shepherd something like this from brainstorming to plan to promotion to execution... all in baby steps. :) Especially if we start out with more realistic, smaller-scale projects like say staging a lie-in somewhere on air mattresses, for those who are well enough and have someone who can transport them and an air mattress to the site. At the very least, we can start putting some ideas out there and see what happens!

Thanks to those of you who made it to the bottom of this very long post, and I hope some of you will join me and @debored13 and anyone who has already been thinking or working along these lines in starting to amass ideas and possible resources and plans for at some point taking action that the government and media and general population cannot ignore!
 

toyfoof

Senior Member
Messages
1,173
Location
Sedona, AZ
Hi @ChloeC

I'm so glad you unlurked and joined us with your ideas and enthusiasm!

I'm on the mild side of moderate at the moment and I'm happy to spend what energy I have working on ideas and showing up when I can. I hope to be able to attend the #MillionsMissing in Phoenix this year if there is one.

People with ME/CFS could decorate and contribute their testimonial mattresses (or more realistically, pieces of cloth that look like mattresses, or perhaps bedspreads)

I like the idea of doing something AIDS-quilt like. What about pillowcases? Plain white pillowcases are relatively inexpensive (and many of us probably have one or two we can donate). They can be easily decorated with markers or paint, or more creatively with embroidery or photography, whatever each person is capable of. We could lay our heads on them as an in-person protest, or sew them up together to form a giant sheet of ME experiences. They are lightweight and easily transportable.

I like the empty shoes of #MillionsMissing, too. A coworker of mine came across the display in Finland last year and was so moved by it, he posted a video on Facebook with voiceover about not knowing what it was about, but he found the poster and read it out loud. Of course I chimed in and explained that it's my disease, and it started a great conversation. But unfortunately, he doesn't make research funding decisions.
 

BeADocToGoTo1

Senior Member
Messages
536
2 million people in the USA yet a handful appear on the worlds largest CFS forum..
Something not adding up...from a global perspective where are all these sick people....do they not use the internet?...

I think it is a combination of many things. When I was at my worst I did not have the energy to even look at a computer screen or understand what was discussed. Then, when you do have enough energy there is the sheer overwhelming amount of knowledge that you have to absorb in order to self-diagnose, self-treat, self-medicate, self-supplement, experiment, etc. Some of the discussions held and the depth of pathways and experimentation will be tough for many. The only reason I finally decided to start posting after many years was to share some of my hard-earned findings and actions to try to provide something positive.

It is sad that the community of ME/CFS (or whatever you want to call it) sufferers and doctors is so fragmented and full of strive, when in the end we are in the same quality of life sucking situation. Everyone is at different levels of torture, but it is not a competition. I had no idea there were that many websites and arguing camps, and the level of hostility is sometimes shocking.

On a positive note, the amount of global information and research at our fingertips these days is amazing. Even the language barrier with google translate is not as large anymore. The amount of supplements and medicine available, and brought to our doorsteps with a few clicks is incredible. The amount of research in the various areas that touch upon ME/CFS is tremendous. The available testing, albeit ridiculously expensive and not as accessible globally, these days is night and day from even 5 years ago. The knowledge being shared by doctors and sufferers who have made progress is very valuable and easily shared globally. The knowledge and research on the dangers of modern processed food, excess sugar, synthetic preservatives/colouring/flavouring/food glue, harmful water quality, herbicides, pesticides, antibiotics, leached plastics and other chemicals in our food supply has grown tremendously. The awareness and availability of healthy food in many parts, albeit expensive, has also gotten much better.

However, when you feel so ill it is hard to get your head above water to take a breath. It is tough to stay optimistic when you have tried the umptieth solution that worked for someone else, but not you. And yes, the medical community has a ways to go to come together globally. But, if I had become as ill as I did 5 years earlier I would not be typing this here today. And that is due to all the things I mentioned above. Please, keep the hope alive!
 
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frozenborderline

Senior Member
Messages
4,405
@ChloeC yeah, im too sick to do these things atm but brainstorming is a good idea, b/c maybe others would pick up on this, that could do it.
I think that burning mattresses could be good. In some ways, just taking directly from the aids movement seems fine and things dont have to be fully original. The slogan "silence = death" could be amended to say "silence = living death" or "silence still = death".. maybe confusing to most people but is enigmatic enough to make people curious.

I think that it would be possible to do some kind of protest within the NIH or CDC buildings, like occupying an office or something. Although perhaps this would work just as well within the halls of congress. I don't know which of all of those things would guarantee the best media presence, but they could be filmed and uploaded if the media wont cover, and maybe go viral
 

frozenborderline

Senior Member
Messages
4,405
Jarred Younger said he found at least 3 herbs that were "very effective" in reducing brain inflammation in Gulf war syndrome and might work in ME/CFS. So that's another possibility.
I am deeply skeptical of this. Perhaps the people w gwi he found were not as sick as severe ME patients. People have been experimenting w antiinflammatory supplements and herbs for awhile, and the herbs that are particularly anti-inflammatory are well known in the integrative medicine communities, but have only heard of super modest improvements from these from ME patients. Does he mean he tested these in vivo or in vitro? i think that if something like curcumin or ginger or another mild anti-inflammatory herb was going to help t would've been found by now. and who knows what is causing the inflammation? I think it could be caused by ongoing toxic exposure, and therefore resolving it through an herb would be like trying to swim upstream.
 

Inara

Senior Member
Messages
455
Now I would agree, anyone with small fiber neuropathy is suffering from an autoimmune condition that is probably not ME/CFS.
I have small fiber neuropathy but no autoimmune condition. SFN doesn't necessarily implicate autoimmunity.