Is there any consensus on which Vaccine is less of a risk for us?

[Booble]

Not necessarily. Anaphylaxis is something they know and in general can easily subvert with epinephrine. There is no way any country would stop a public health effort of this magnitude because of that. Every medication is going to cause allergic reactions in some people. We would not get out of this crisis if a country stopped because of that.

The thrombocytopenia is a different story. The reason for it and the solution to it are still unknown.

Because of the very few cases relative to the amount of vaccine delivery it's going to be viewed as collateral damage in this war effort, but interesting that some European countries want to learn a bit more.

 

[nerd]

Not necessarily. Anaphylaxis is something they know and in general can easily subvert with epinephrine.

You have to be really fast with the intervention and not everyone is lucky enough to survive it. Epinephrine levels have to be gauged due to the urgency.

The thrombocytopenia is a different story.

Autoimmune thrombocytopenia is critical just as anaphylaxis. But it has a treatment plan just anaphylaxis. You have to suppress the autoimmune reaction via immune suppression using corticosteroids. And you have to increase platelet production.

The reason for it and the solution to it are still unknown.

It's not unknown (10.1007/s42399-020-00521-8).

SARS-CoV-2-mediated immune thrombocytopenia can be attributed to the underlying immune dysregulation, susceptibility mutations in SOCS 1, and other mechanisms, including molecular mimicry, cryptic antigen expression, and epitope spreading.

If they don't remove the immune-dysregulating genes in the vaccine's genome, the vaccine will have the same effect as SARS-CoV-2 itself but without replicating, which isn't necessary due to the high load in the vaccine itself.
The solution is to recheck if you haven't missed any genes that could be responsible for this effect.

I still don't see why Biontech/Pfizer and Moderna should be preferred. mRNA vaccines cause autoimmune thrombocytopenia + anaphylaxis. AstraZeneca's vaccine causes autoimmune thrombocytopenia. J&J might cause neither, but it's still early to tell. But usually, vaccines with reduced efficacy have made sacrifices in the genome that could be considered adverse. I assume J&J's vaccine is less efficacious because it's safer.

 

[Booble]

J&J's vaccine is likely NOT less efficacious. It's tests were done when there were more variants. It's likely that both BionTech and Moderna would have similar results done today.

From what we know all of the vaccines may have the risk for thrombocytopenia and it is incorrect that we know how to deal with it. We know how to deal with standard thrombocytopenia but not vaccine related. This is a much, much more complicated issue than anaphylaxis, despite the fact that some people will die from vaccine anaphylaxis. (Lord knows with my allergies, I'm worried about it.)

 

[nerd]

J&J's vaccine is likely NOT less efficacious. It's tests were done when there were more variants. It's likely that both BionTech and Moderna would have similar results done today.

I agree to come extent. But even with the previous variants, there was variety in the efficacy. And we also have to consider that the J&J is using a different technology. mRNA is the most direct but drastic trigger for immune response, so I also expect a little bit more efficacy.

From what we know all of the vaccines may have the risk for thrombocytopenia and it is incorrect that we know how to deal with it.

I've summarized how vaccine-induced (= autoimmune) thrombocytopenia is treated. We know what it is and how to deal with it. If it wasn't autoimmune thrombocytopenia, but a different type, immune suppression wouldn't make sense, would it? What is the reason you don't agree?

Either way, I just don't get your point. My argument was that mRNA vaccines are associated with increased risks and that there is no reason to blame AstraZeneca for thrombocytopenia and that it is hypocritical to take only their vaccine of market.

 

[Booble]

We agree that there is no reason to blame AstraZeneca more than the others. My point was simply that European agencies are more careful, and that is the primary vaccine in Europe.

 

[Darla]

I received the J&J vaccine and had intense chills 10 hours later. Other than that I was fine. I have mild ME.

 

[Guwop2]

I have mild M.E and just over 2 weeks ago I had AstraZenica. Before the jab I was able to exercise regularly (daily routine of crunchies, push-ups, dips etc and bi-weekly run around the park). 2 weeks following the jab I cannot walk for more than 10 mins around the block without getting bodily inflammation (in my legs mostly, but fizzy head slightly occurs too). I'm effectively house-bound now. Once the inflammation subsides (takes a day or 2) I'm back to normal (no pain/no trace of m.e) but for now at least I cannot tolerate any form of physical activity since that is a trigger - did a few push-ups in bedromm, but it triggered a day of PEM. It may be that as time passes my body will adjust and I'll get back to where I was, but for now at least I don't think I'll be risking the second dose - since as far as I understand one dose mitigates the worst effects of Covid, especially for under 40's (I'm male, 39) and any further regression in M.E health is too awful a consequence. This is entirely subjective, and people make their own minds up etc, consider also that I seem especially sensitive to things - had my ears pierced once and it sent such a load of cortisol around my body that it took me a year to recover. Also worth noting that my fibro/me symptoms feel slightly different from my 'normal' M.E symptoms, which is a little worrying since I'd finely callibrated everything in my life to the point where I could live a decent-life (very strict diet and supplements mainly), but these callibration tricks aren't working against the current issue. Hopefully these slightly different symptoms are just a short term effect of being vaccinated, but having hope is perhaps one of the cruelest symptoms of this thing I've realised.

 

[Blue Jay]

I don't think you've given yourself anything like enough time to recover from the vaccine, @Guwop2, before attempting any exercise. I had three weeks plus of extreme fatigue, headaches and malaise after my first dose of the AstraZeneca vaccine. Fortunately, I found I recovered much more quickly after the second one - just a day or two.

After working so hard to reach your best kind of wellness, it must be very frustrating for you but I'd advise you to be patient for a while longer and allow your body to rest and recover.

I do hope you'll think hard about having the second vaccination, too.

Wishing you all the best with your recovery.

 

[Guwop2]

Your response is reassuring @Blue Jay , thank you, i hope my experience tallies with yours. Will of course consider the second dose if I recover from the current state of things, otherwise it will feel like a big gamble with a lot at stake.

 

[Kes]

I can definitely understand your concern @Guwop2 regarding taking a second dose. I agree with @Blue Jay though regarding it sounding like a good idea to back off on the activity for a while and see if things settle down in the coming weeks and then maybe take it slower than you want to. I imagine that won't be easy. I've become severe and am apprehensive about the AZ vaccine in particular and the vaccines in general because I seem to react badly these days to everything and due to my current level of dysfunction fear becoming totally bedbound. I'm in England and have only fairly recently been invited to take a vaccine but I'm also dealing with a v bad and long crash so I really wanted to at least be at baseline when I take one.
Anyway really hope things improve for you in the coming weeks

 

[Guwop2]

Hey Kes, thanks for this. I do have to exercise some patience I know, just frustrating atm. Ive read quite varied accounts of things, some people who are moderate/severe hardly react, others do. I'm very relieved ive at least got some immunity. I didn't do any research prior to gettng the jab, but have since become curious whether the protein-based ones might have been easier on me. No idea. I read that under 40's in the U.K (im in the U.K too) may be offered different vaccines in the coming months. It all feels like gamble i guess since each of us are different. And to you too, I hope your long crash relents soon and before your jab. Good luck pal -)

 

[Kes]

Hey Guwop2, thanks very much for that. No worries. It must be very frustrating and when I was more functional I found it virtually impossible to do what I suggested. I wish I'd pondered more on why because if I could have worked that out I likely wouldn't have deteriorated so much.

I'm considering consulting a functional medicine doctor but I want to consult with an endocrinologist I have been recommended first who has a special interest in fatigue. Both could get pricey. I think my adrenals have been suppressed by a v short course of prednisolone I was prescribed for a chest issue around 18 months ago. I've been kicking myself ever since as I'd read a thread on here about some people's long term decline from them and they just weren't essential. I'm under a POTS specialist (NHS) but I don't neatly fit into the POTS box but I do have POTS like symptoms and orthostatic intolerance. Last year I couldn't understand why I kept crashing but fortunately a 24 hour urine test that the specialist had asked my GP to arrange indicated my sodium was low and that thankfully stopped that happening providing I'm careful but I get too stimulated by the time release sodium tablets so just guessing through diet.

Anyway, sorry, went off on major ramble there. Yeah I've not done too much research. I saw the article from health rising that someone linked to on a thread here whuch had a poll which was informative.

I saw that about under 40s being offered alternative. I don't know if that means if someone goes for the jab at that time they're more likely to be given an alternative too. Yeah we're all different as you say so it is a gamble. I think my immune system tends to veer towards being overactive. I don't get I'll much from bugs and when I get a cold v rarely I tend to feel a little bit better. Anyway, all the best to you too pal. PS..Your reaction to having your ears pierced sounds really rough. I'd never heard of anyone reacting like that before.

 

[Guwop2]

I found it virtually impossible to do what I suggested. I wish I'd pondered more on why because if I could have worked that out I likely wouldn't have deteriorated so much.

If you dont mind me asking what has been your health trajectory? - for example were you bad, then better, then bad again (and how good/bad were/are you)? and you say you wish you has "pondered more on why", do you mean that when you were better (or maybe just had milder M.E symptoms) you wish you had not been so active and more reflective on why you had improved (and more cautious perhaps?), since it may have given you a better chance of maintaining a level of health? I find that crash periods usually follow something careless i did - like the ear piercing, or last summer accidentaly ingesting some hand-sanitizer from my hand when eating (should have known not to have used it at all considering my gut's sensitivity - the hand-sanitizer incident set me back 5/6 months).

I'd be curious to know more about the endo and functional medicine doctor you mentioned, is there a thread on on here where you discussed it?

 

[Blue Jay]

Will of course consider the second dose if I recover from the current state of things, otherwise it will feel like a big gamble with a lot at stake.

I can understand that, @Guwop2, and it sounds like a good decision. My son (also has ME) has had his first dose and he's had quite a mild reaction compared to the one I had. He sounds a lot like you in that he has worked out his own 'recovery' path. He's vegan, watches his diet carefully and exercises as much as he can.

I want to consult with an endocrinologist

Hi, @Kes, just want to mention that my son saw an endocrinologist and received a diagnosis of a pituitary problem. He saw a very good NHS specialist so cost didn't come into it, fortunately.