Is CFS a chronic inflammation? (Herbs)

[Wolfcub]

I'm still at the stage of trying to figure things out and don't know much, except about herbs.

So please bear with me people, as you know a lot more than I do about this. I am such a newbie!

But it got me wondering today about whether CFS is related to chronic inflammation?
In many cases, set up by an initial infection. But once past the "active infection" stage treatments for infection probably don't work.
At least that is what I have found, as my herbal remedies for infection don't really seem to be completely getting rid of the fatigue and echoes of initial symptoms when tired.
So inflammation came to mind next.

There are a number of common, cheap and easily-available herbs that reduce inflammation. There are others, so if anyone would like to include them in comments, please do.
But the ones I've found are "general kitchen herbs and spices". And include:

Sage
Capsicum
Curcumin (Turmeric)
Black Pepper
Ginger
Cinnamon
Rosemary
Camomile
Basil (and Holy Basil)
Those are the kitchen herbs that most people may have right now in stock for cooking.

Diet is also important.

Anyway I am going to experiment with those herbs and see what happens. There aren't generally contra-indications as far as I can see with most of them taken in moderation. It has been found that herbs like Rosemary, Black Pepper, and Sage for example can make striking differences in inflammatory conditions when even taken in culinary doses! But some would be teas 3 times a day, such as Camomile. It depends how the herb suits the person.

But of course even gentle safe herbs can clash very badly with prescription medicines. It's also possible to be allergic to plants of the Daisy Family, or other plant families. And what suits one person might not suit another person.

Just an idea anyway.... I thought I'd share.

 

[Shoshana]

Very interesting. Thank you for posting about this, @Wolfcub and for the specifics in it.

I will read it again, when I can take more of it in, and ponder it.

 

[Shoshana]

I was thinking.... that even if CFS is NOT a chronic inflammation, or not solely, or not even predominantly or primarily,

which I do not believe it is,

it still might be beneficial to find non-harmful ways to reduce inflammation, as we all have that, and reducing it would help any condition, it would seem to me.

 

[Wishful]

You may get unexpected results, since ME/CFS is not as simple and straightforward as chronic inflammation. Turmeric, cinnamon, and resveratol make my symptoms much worse. I strongly expect that other spices and herbs will have the same effect. I think it's due to their peroxynitrite scavenging properties, but I'm not sure.

Studies have shown that our immune systems are activated, but I don't know of any showing that anti-inflammatories or immunosuppressants are generally effective treatments for ME/CFS. Don't let that stop you from experimenting with herbs and spices though. You may discover one that actually helps you. I did (cumin). Apigenin reduced my brainfog slightly, but stopped working after a few months.

Here's a marketing idea for someone: offer small quantities of herbs and spices from around the world. Stores sell a very limited selection, and in amounts intended for cooking. For those of us wanting to try a few doses as a potential treatment, we need smaller (cheaper) amounts, without expensive packaging and marketing. People wanting to taste different spices would be another potential market.

 

[Runner5]

Dr. Don Davis and some other researchers have been looking at the blood of CFS patients and at metabolic links (but they're also looking at genetics, viral infections and so much more) -- but if you go down the metabolic rabbit hole there are a lot of similarities between it and insulin resistance.

Insulin does more than work with sugar, it also helps regulate amino acids and fat. On the forum and in research you will find amino acids mentioned again and again and again. It is definitely a key component to the illness. (But taking aminos doesn't cure it).

The metabolic link is why a lot of people have gone Keto or low-Carb, a way of dumping intramyocellular lipids from the internal workings of the cell and heaped up against our poor mitochondria -- let in oxygen and get that Krebs cycle booted up to be aerobic again instead of anaerobic.

However -- I chose to go Vegan because I flat out don't digest meat, eggs, fat, or protein very well (and given a choice I really will always pick veggies and fruit over stodgier foods). But essentially it's the same idea - dump the intramyocellular lipids (fat where fat should not be deposited, often muscle cells including the heart, liver, pancreas) and get the cells to working again in an aerobic manner. I think it's kinda like -- "well the crappy processed diet we grew up with causes every other d**m illness, why not this one?"

Are there accounts of people 'curing' CFS with diet? Yes. Both Vegan and Low-Carb / Keto accounts are online reporting great improvement. Are these anymore than anecdotes and BS? Who knows. I don't. Improving CFS with diet is a very long shot. There is an underlying etiology that the best minds in the world haven't figured out yet using the cutting edge newly designed scientific equipment. All they know for sure is "something odd is happening..." (deep dive searching PR you find a lot of neat videos, articles etc.) (note -- most likely there unequivocally is no cure, just management of CFS)

Also I mean, if you have an illness this bad most of us are on some kind of a strict healthy eating plan that is way beyond what the standard american diet is. I'm surrounded by people all the time who eat nothing but garbage but are way healthier than I am. My elderly father is in his mid-70's, he is 6'8" tall with a blood pressure of only 100. I don't know how he doesn't pass out non-stop every time he stand-ups. He eats pie every week and has diabetes -- STILL HAS MORE ENERGY THAN ME. (which I'm glad of, only wish the best for good old Dad ) My husband who eats at least 5 full size large pizzas a week nomatter how much I frown at him -- still more energy than I have.

I am a spice fanatic and have a smoothie every day with cinnamon, clove, tumeric, Matcha (from Japan) and I even have a stash of Goji berries. I think I'm pretty hard core into nutrition. Eh' it makes my food taste good. When my GI flares I have to eat very bland food, so I go on and off of taking spices and haven't ever noticed a remarkable difference in how I feel.

The lengths people on this forum have gone to in order to find an answer, get access to a drug or rare supplement or find treatment will blow your mind. I think this might be the most desperate spot on the Internet. There really is no stone unturned that I've been able to find yet. People here have tried treatments that I find shockingly scary ( -- worry about some of ya'll that you're going to kill yourselves trying to heal yourselves! --)

I do buy really high quality spices - for whatever it is worth - but mostly because they taste better and have less filler.

While researching metabolic connections came across a factoid, there may be a substance in black tea that helps the liver undo insulin resistance and helps dump intramyocellular fat. They're testing it on mice and it works for rodents but might not for people. Anyway, maybe a cup of tea with some cinnamon in it? *cheers*

 

[ebethc]

I've discovered proteolytic enzymes in the past couple of years and they are by far the best anti inflammatory and pain reliever that I've found ... I've posted about it, so sorry if this is redundant

The downside is that they can be expensive (unfortunately, the vegetarian formulas don't work for me...) I use wobenzym n and vascuzyme... I want to try wobenzym plus, next..

they work by breaking up CICs (circulating immune complexes), so they're not just masking the pain, they're actually removing the culprit... also, I don't get rebound pain...

bromelain works okay for me, too, (especially for sinus issues) but it's nowhere near as effective of wobie or vascuzyme

 

[sufferingwithme]

Dr. Don Davis and some other researchers have been looking at the blood of CFS patients and at metabolic links (but they're also looking at genetics, viral infections and so much more) -- but if you go down the metabolic rabbit hole there are a lot of similarities between it and insulin resistance.

Insulin does more than work with sugar, it also helps regulate amino acids and fat. On the forum and in research you will find amino acids mentioned again and again and again. It is definitely a key component to the illness. (But taking aminos doesn't cure it).

The metabolic link is why a lot of people have gone Keto or low-Carb, a way of dumping intramyocellular lipids from the internal workings of the cell and heaped up against our poor mitochondria -- let in oxygen and get that Krebs cycle booted up to be aerobic again instead of anaerobic.

However -- I chose to go Vegan because I flat out don't digest meat, eggs, fat, or protein very well (and given a choice I really will always pick veggies and fruit over stodgier foods). But essentially it's the same idea - dump the intramyocellular lipids (fat where fat should not be deposited, often muscle cells including the heart, liver, pancreas) and get the cells to working again in an aerobic manner. I think it's kinda like -- "well the crappy processed diet we grew up with causes every other d**m illness, why not this one?"

Are there accounts of people 'curing' CFS with diet? Yes. Both Vegan and Low-Carb / Keto accounts are online reporting great improvement. Are these anymore than anecdotes and BS? Who knows. I don't. Improving CFS with diet is a very long shot. There is an underlying etiology that the best minds in the world haven't figured out yet using the cutting edge newly designed scientific equipment. All they know for sure is "something odd is happening..." (deep dive searching PR you find a lot of neat videos, articles etc.) (note -- most likely there unequivocally is no cure, just management of CFS)

Also I mean, if you have an illness this bad most of us are on some kind of a strict healthy eating plan that is way beyond what the standard american diet is. I'm surrounded by people all the time who eat nothing but garbage but are way healthier than I am. My elderly father is in his mid-70's, he is 6'8" tall with a blood pressure of only 100. I don't know how he doesn't pass out non-stop every time he stand-ups. He eats pie every week and has diabetes -- STILL HAS MORE ENERGY THAN ME. (which I'm glad of, only wish the best for good old Dad ) My husband who eats at least 5 full size large pizzas a week nomatter how much I frown at him -- still more energy than I have.

I am a spice fanatic and have a smoothie every day with cinnamon, clove, tumeric, Matcha (from Japan) and I even have a stash of Goji berries. I think I'm pretty hard core into nutrition. Eh' it makes my food taste good. When my GI flares I have to eat very bland food, so I go on and off of taking spices and haven't ever noticed a remarkable difference in how I feel.

The lengths people on this forum have gone to in order to find an answer, get access to a drug or rare supplement or find treatment will blow your mind. I think this might be the most desperate spot on the Internet. There really is no stone unturned that I've been able to find yet. People here have tried treatments that I find shockingly scary ( -- worry about some of ya'll that you're going to kill yourselves trying to heal yourselves! --)

I do buy really high quality spices - for whatever it is worth - but mostly because they taste better and have less filler.

While researching metabolic connections came across a factoid, there may be a substance in black tea that helps the liver undo insulin resistance and helps dump intramyocellular fat. They're testing it on mice and it works for rodents but might not for people. Anyway, maybe a cup of tea with some cinnamon in it? *cheers*

So would I able to ask you this: the whole “energy” aspect, is it connected to ATP and mitochondria, or is it more in-depth than that? What is it in CFS that makes energy production so bad? If one’s #1 symptom is just not having enough energy; how would one go about fixing that, what needs to be fixed for energy?

 

[Wolfcub]

This is weird....I have so much energy. Just like normal. I use it, then two days later, pay for it. And the payback isn't just tiredness. I'm not actually tired, I get "funny turns" and like my body is under stress. It never happens while I'm using my good energy, always with an awful delay which makes you feel "hey I'm better"....until one or two days later.

You know that kind of physical stress you get when you put your body in a stress position and hold it for too long? That shaking trembling weakness? Well that's the feeling I get. Not sleepy tiredness, or even a feeling that you get after a hard day's physical work. Worse. And that feeling can even start from morning on first getting up and showered.

 

[Wishful]

I don't believe that ATP production is a critical aspect of ME/CFS. I'm in the subgroup that doesn't suffer physical fatigue or reduced stamina. I managed a 6-hr bike ride, and didn't even suffer significant PEM from it, so I don't think I have reduced ATP production. I do have mental lethargy, and I expect that's due to some other aspect of ME/CFS, affecting neural function.

For the subgroup that does suffer from limited energy, I expect the ME/CFS affects mitochondrial function. Since there's a subgroup that doesn't suffer that, I'm guessing that it's not a critical factor in the feedback loop that locks us into this abnormal state. I suppose it would be possible to treat the loss of energy without reducing the other symptoms (not suggesting that as a goal, just as a thought experiment).

 

[bertie7]

I miss being able to exercise so much (although I had to force myself when I was fully able) It soothed so much stress and I would give anything to be able to do it now. When I do physical exertion my stomach swells a dress size and my underarms swell that I can't hold my arms straight dow without pain, and my lymph node/gland pain under my cheeks and in my neck is so intense I feel like I need to vomit. This can come from making a regular cooked dinner for my family. I also get the shaking that Wolfcub describes. Anyone have any thoughts?