Intracellular magnesium defiency and vitamin B6 (and/or B2) deficiency in ME/CFS

[richvank]

Hi Rich

***Hi, AQ.

I don't think I was supplementing much of anything at the time of that first B6 test back in '06, certainly not mega dosages.

***O.K.

People on pyroluria groups tell me serum B6 readings are unreliable.

***They may mean that a serum B6 measurement tells you how much is in the serum, but not what is inside the cells, where the business takes place.

I didn't take any supplemental B6 between 2007 & 2011, bearing in mind Amy Yasko's cautions about B6 & the CBS SNPs, so no I was not taking any B6 at the time of that OAT in 2011, so that result is a puzzle.

***I'm assuming that you mean the high pyridoxic. I don't understand why it was high then, either, unless it means that your body was not able to use B6 very well, and was therefore dumping it.

Which raises the question, was I wasting B6 in the urine, and if so why?

***We must have two great minds!

KPU maybe?

***I think that's a possibility. Maybe low B2 is a possibility, also.

Calcium is in range on my recent CBCs.

***O.K. You probably don't have hyperparathyroidism then.

Alk phos is low in range. I've had my eye on it since hearing Klinghardt talk about it.. I think it has got lower over the years. A plasma amino acids test in 2010 was strongly suggestive of hypochloridia .. so that could be a clue to low zinc, I guess.

***Yes, low alkaline phosphatase can be caused by low zinc. And yes, low stomach acid can be caused by low zinc, too, though there are other possibilities, such as low glutathione, which you also appear to have had.

Thanks for taking the time to look at these.

Hard to know where to go next. I have been going around in circles for a while now.

Cheers
AQ

ETA: So how useful is it to supplement magnesium if it can't get into the cells because of some B6 bottleneck?

***I think that's a definite problem. Maybe raising B2 will help with the B6, which in turn will help with the magnesium. Alternatively, maybe it's HPU, and getting the Health Diagnostics test for that may be worth doing.

***Best regards,

***Rich

 

[Enid]

We do not have anything like your tests here rich but I follow your research closely - why I wonder was I losing/wasting potassium in urine early on (neon yellow no supps at the time). I heard adrenal problems.

 

[aquariusgirl]

Ok, Enid, I am a layperson, but someone was telling me that high potassium in the urine could be due to cell death.. apparently potassium is given off when the cells die. I had v. elevated apoptosis in tests I ran thru Acumen Labs in Devon (UK) back in the day. I'm sure you could google this to verify if it's accurate.. and there are probably other explanations also....

BTW, did you have the urine test done on the NHS?

And PPS, Genovations has an office in England .. so you can get some of these funky tests over there.. Just pricey & they all need to be repeated.... Hopefully, those of us this side of the Atlantic can advance the collective wisdom. I feel for you. The NHS has nothing to offer PWCS I know.

Hang in there Enid!

 

[aquariusgirl]

Thanks Rich. Yeah, more tests.. Yay!
Thankfully I am seeing results with B2 so that seems like a home run.
The 2 yrs I spent sucking down OSR & EDTA probably didn't help with low zinc either... Hindsight is great isn't it?

 

[Enid]

Thanks for your comments aquarius - luckily the neon urine has ceased and awful odour too. Working through all the good advice and much clearer thinking now. My Doc - usually too many bananas !

 

[aquariusgirl]

Yes. Damn those bananas. If I had known then what I know now about those darn things.......Ay!

 

[adreno]

Yes. Damn those bananas. If I had known then what I know now about those darn things.......Ay!

Huh? I must have missed something; what's wrong with bananas?

 

[aquariusgirl]

Sarcasm.. enid's doc thinks some of her issues may be due to bananas.

 

[BFG]

I found a study about regulation of magnesium with b6, b12, and folate in relation to homocysteine.
Could this study have any relation to Rich's original post?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10553943

 

[girlfromeurope]

Rich, can you help me connect the dots here?

I have many tests showing a need for B6. I have low intracellular magnesium per the Exatest test, in spite of lots of supplementation. I have low B2 (OAT) & lots of markers for phosphate are extremely high.
I also once ran a serum B6 test and the result was off the charts high.. maybe 10 or 20x the upper range of normal.

Thanks

Hi , I know it's an old thread, but I think have the same problems as you.
I also have a magnesium deficiency ant get levels up. Also have symptoms of b6, b2 and zinc deficiency.
But can't get those up either. Did you find an answer to your problems?

 

[aquariusgirl]

Nope. Sorry.

 

[presently_distant]

I think part of the problem is that magnesium deficiencies take ALOT of magnesium to correct and I find my demand skyrockets as soon as I start supplementing it again. B6 (p5p) really seems to go well with magnesium as well as taurine.

When I use magnesium taurate sublingually, I feel like I'm finally getting some magnesium into my system that is not eliminated an hour later. Not sure it taurine helps with retention or not (pretty sure I read somewhere it does). But, I know what I'm feeling (definitely no placebo here) and it's GOOD.

The other end of the problem (for me, at least) is that thiamin requires magnesium to function optimally and without thiamin...energy and brain function are just not where they need to be (to say it lightly).

 

[presently_distant]

I think part of the problem is that magnesium deficiencies take ALOT of magnesium to correct and I find my demand skyrockets as soon as I start supplementing it again. B6 (p5p) really seems to go well with magnesium as well as taurine.

When I use magnesium taurate sublingually, I feel like I'm finally getting some magnesium into my system that is not eliminated an hour later. Not sure it taurine helps with retention or not (pretty sure I read somewhere it does). But, I know what I'm feeling (definitely no placebo here) and it's GOOD.

The other end of the problem (for me, at least) is that thiamin requires magnesium to function optimally and without thiamin...energy and brain function are just not where they need to be (to say it lightly).

Since zinc is needed for p5p utilization and p5p is needed for magnesium utilization (to whatever degree that may be). Shouldn't one first supplement with hcl pepsin to help zinc absorb, then try taking a dose of p5p, then try a form of magnesium that suits your fancy? I'm going to experiment...

This is just my simple minded, non trained perspective. So please bare with me. But isn't that a logical route?

I've been thinking about why magnesium and subsequently thiamin isn't absorbing in my case and it could be due to my lack of stomach acid and cofactors.

 

[kel88]

I was surching on the internet and found this post.
They say people with Celiac have low Akline Phosphatase.
This is the reson they cant do anything with normal B6.
P5P would be better only leople with Celiac cant absorp P5P well in the gut.
So the anwse would be ( heal the gut). And inject dailey with P5P injections in steat of pyridoxine HCL.

But how do we get those?

All people with CFS, Autism, schizophrenia and auto immuun disease have problems with wheat and gluten and so low in alkaline phosphatase.

So injections would be the best solutions just as b12.

Anybody a idea where we can get those?

 

[MacGyver]

@aquariusgirl @girlfromeurope
I'd look into Boron. I also have (had?) elevated levels of P5P (218nmol/L) in my blood and couldn't tolerate taking any magnesium whatsoever. I would get, seriously, depressed and have aggravated pain when taking even a crumb (30mg) of magnesium malate. I'd tried everything to be able to take magnesium: take potassium, salt, more P5P, B2, general vitamin complex, all other trace minerals etc. nothing worked.

I started taking boron (initially 1x 3mg NOW Foods Calcium Borogluconate, now 2x) and after only 5 days I'm already able to take 500mg of magnesium!
Why do I know it's the boron and not something else? I didn't start taking anything else and I can feel the raised testosterone all too well

From what little information there is available regarding boron, it has the following properties:

• Is involved in calcium, magnesium and phosphate metabolism. Taking boron alone will raise magnesium and calcium levels.
• Boron is said to be a cellular membrane catalyst allowing several ions to pass into cells, especially phosphates. For me this explains how boron can raise magnesium levels in the first place. But that's me making that link, nothing to back it up: P5P is a phosphate molecule. P5P is, from Rich's info, needed to get magnesium into the cells. Hence: Raise Boron -> Get P5P into cells -> Raise magnesium.
• The same membrane catalyst property regarding phosphates also means boron is involved in ATP synthesis.
• Interacts with several (all?) hormones including Vitamin D: boron is involved in the process of converting Vit D to it's active form. Taking boron without additional Vit D will still allow proper bone formation.
• Boron's action regarding hormones also means it can raise testosterone!

Side note: there have been previous posts here regarding boron, some with negative responses. Look into those as well but since we're all grasping straws here: I'd give it a try. While I don't have OAT tests or blood/hair testing to prove anything; my own n=1 experiment shows positive results and I was getting a bit worried I wasn't able to tolerate magnesium at all, until now

Good luck!

 

[MacGyver]

I'd like to add a few notes to my previous post.

While the above is still true regarding boron it seems the major effect for me wasn't with regards to its effect on P5P and magnesium but its role in and effect on vitamin D and calcium metabolism. As a result of its vitamin D/calcium effects I was able to tolerate taking magnesium because, as I've now figured out I need to increase my D and calcium intakes to be able to raise/sustain taking magnesium.
That said, boron is key here. Without it, taking vitamin D, calcium and magnesium would result in serious issues. With it I get the benefits of all three, though I'm still working on getting the ratios right.
It's clear to me that boron is a key player to get correct calcium metabolism. Disfunctional calcium metabolism being something which I think is all too common due to trace mineral deficiencies like boron and manganese.

Since the previous post I upped my dose to 27mg/day and have been on that for the past 4 months. (Yes, I'm still alive )

Also, I've since had a hair test (before taking 27mg boron per day) and... it showed low boron That along with it showing low manganese and responding to that favourably, as well as showing calcium/magnesium metabolism issues confirms for me that hair testing is very, very reliable. Best money I ever invested in my health.

 

[renski]

Just for research purposes, my own experience with high p5p blood - I have low B2 and B6, I originally had B2/B6/B12 low on the OAT, my plasma zinc was also low. After a few years of declining health (which were triggered by killing off my good flora with herbal antibiotics) my B6 levels continued to drop my OAT and supplementing P5P mostly made my symptoms worse. Then later on I had my p5p levels tested in my blood, and they were high. I only tested it once. At the time I was taking R5P, Zinc, Mn, B3, B1, Biotin. My B2 levels improved a little bit on my OAT but not my B6, also when I was on the R5P my symptoms became much worse and I had to supplement with P5P to balance it out. In hindsight the whole treatment was misguided and stupid but it just showed that supplementing B2 didn't improve B6 (zinc was still deficient). As I've become more B6 deficient my homocysteine levels has slowly risen as well, could the issues with high p5p in blood could be due to inflammation/oxidative stress? Or is there just another co-factor missing, like B12?

 

[sb4]

This is interesting as I have been trying to wrap my head around seemingly contradictory test results I have received within half a year of each other.

B6:
-OAT says low.
-Erythrocyte Aspartate Aminotransferase (glutamic-oxaloacetic transaminase) says normal.
-Osteopath says low.

B2:
-OAT says normal.
-Erythrocyte Glutathione Reductase says low.
-Osteopath says normal.

B1/Mg:
-Erythrocyte Transketolase says normal B1.
-Osteopath says low B1 and low Mg.
-I do better on B1 and Mg.

Now I can attempt to explain the B6 contradictions by the idea in this thread that removing the phosphate is the problem. The EGOT test, doesn't require the phosphate on B6 to be removed to enter an erythrocyte, so if I have normal amounts of P5P in blood this would explain why that test came back normal yet the OAT came back deficient. The P5P in the blood cannot get into cells, possibly thanks to low riboflavin being unable to detach the P. This would also help to explain the low Mg.

Now the B2 EGR test could possibly be the faulty one out of the three as it is measuring glutathione reductase in erythrocytes. If I am right (and the OAT backs this up) about me using up a lot of glutathione then perhaps the reason the enzyme is working overtime is more due to excess oxidised glutathione than to an actual deficiency of B2. This would give the appearance of EGR gobbling up as much as it can yet the OAT tests would show normal levels as the other enzymes that use B2 would have enough.

This would not explain why B6 cannot get into the cell however, but i don't think it needs to. If PDH is messed up then I will be using a lot extra B6 via anaplerosis. If this is the case then perhaps my Mg is low just due to stress (and B6) using it up and not due to being unable to enter cells. Perhaps my B2 was considered low because I was in ketosis at the time?

 

[renski]

Check B3 levels? There are markers on the OAT and Nutreval which will tell you if you have glutathione issues, my magnesium looks fine on Nutreval RBC, yet Phosphoethanolamine is low which means low magnesium.

 

[battle1]

So glad i stumbled upon this thread, finally some people that are knowledgeable about such matters.

Hi, I'm a 22 year old Male whose been suffering from a variety of symptoms for over a year so below is a summary of what I went through all my diagnoses and my symptoms:

I start getting this funny feeling around my chest I am anxious, I get a few panic attacks here and there and I get diagnosed with panic disorder, then I start taking lexapro but after 3 months of use and no improvement whatsoever, I lay off of it and suffer from brain saps and crushing headache for a month.

I start having pain on the left side of my body which first started around my arm then to my leg and finally my chest.

I go to a cardiologist and a lung specialist(don't know if it is the right department) and both say I'm fine which is good news.

My chest pain becomes severe I go to er a few times ecg normal.

Intermittent severe burning-like pain that is on my chest gets aggravated even more after I fall on my back while drunk.

At this point I started to take it seriously and started researching.

I notice a rash that appears on my upper chest which is accompanied with this pain and my sternum hurts severely when I touch it even in the lightest way.

I go to a dermatologist she suspects vitamin d deficiency and it turns out I am indeed deficient in it.

I take 1 million ius of vitamin d in 1 month to rid my body of this pain but in the process become toxic and start avoiding calcium.

I go go a different pain specialist and she diagnoses me with ankylosing spondylitis, hypoparathyroidism and magnesium deficiency.

I am devastated and put all my remaining energy into researching this mess.

I notice a pattern in all my blood tests this last year and I have low alp in all of them but doctors somehow neglected this.

A month passes and It turns out that doctor was insane and i had no trace of ankylosing spondylitis (again, thank god)

But amidst all the relief i felt, there was still the problem that i was yet to resolve so i go to an endocrinologist.

She suspects i might have hypophosphatasia so wants a vitamin b6, zinc, rbc Magnesium, phosphoethanolamine, and alp isoenzymes test.

My rbc level is 4.77 with lowest acceptable of 4 after supplementing with it for 2 months and she is shocked.

My zinc level is 72 out of lowest 70 and she tells me to use a supplement.

My plp level is 66 out of highest of 50 as acceptable and my doctor has nothing to say about it.

My alp isoenzymes are fine in terms of percentage numbers but they lack in total number as both liver and bone isoenzymes are a little bit low but hypophosphatasia is pushed aside for the moment.

I also have high 24 hr urine creatinine and phosphorus but that might be irrelevant.

So I wonder if anyone else suffered from low all and cured it with supplementation?

Also could I be deficient in b6 and thus magnesium and hence low zinc and low all or am I too paranoid?

Maybe I need boron or calcium as I intentionally avoid calcium because I had been toxic for a while. Is it needed for magnesium and zinc absorption?