Intracellular calcium and viruses

[Wonkmonk]

Iritu1021 It seems only Lithium Aspartate is available in Germany (via Amazon). Would that be similar to orotate?

I probably wouldn't be too much affected by adverse effects on the thyroid, because my thyroid gland has been fully removed a couple of years ago.

 

[Wonkmonk]

Not sure if it's a really worthy trade-off, I'm super sensitive to the fluctuations. When you say it didn't help much, is it more like it didn't help at all or there was some benefit? I have the same issue with even tiniest doses of T3 (now that I'm on T4 even 1 mcg is too much!).

More like didn't help at all. The only positive thing was less headache in the morning, which usually resulted from the T4 peak. But overall, I had no improvement at all. Headaches after the whole dose in the morning have disappeared after about two years of thyroid replacement therapy. No idea why it went away, but it did.

It's funny my doctors and everyone else says it's impossible to be sensitive to T4 changes of 6.25µg (1/4 of a 25µg tablet), but I clearly get worse when I take 6.25µg less or more than my ideal dose, which seems to be 162µg. I can't even go a tiny bit higher or lower than that without worsening substantially.

I am sure this hypersensitivity has to do with the CFS.

 

[Iritu1021]

More like didn't help at all. The only positive thing was less headache in the morning, which usually resulted from the T4 peak. But overall, I had no improvement at all. Headaches after the whole dose in the morning have disappeared after about two years of thyroid replacement therapy. No idea why it went away, but it did.

It's funny my doctors and everyone else says it's impossible to be sensitive to T4 changes of 6.25µg (1/4 of a 25µg tablet), but I clearly get worse when I take 6.25µg less or more than my ideal dose, which seems to be 162µg. I can't even go a tiny bit higher or lower than that without worsening substantially.

I am sure this hypersensitivity has to do with the CFS.

Yes, me too! I usually adjust to dose changes but it seems that for me the right T4/T3 balance is imperative. I think its because we have extensive chronic virus in our CNS and we need to walk a tight rope between too much immune system activation (neuoinflammation) and symptoms of CNS viral infection. I think my range for neutral balance is no more than two decimal points.
@Wonkmonk what is 162 mcg for you in terms of mcg/kg?

 

[Iritu1021]

Iritu1021 It seems only Lithium Aspartate is available in Germany (via Amazon). Would that be similar to orotate?

I probably wouldn't be too much affected by adverse effects on the thyroid, because my thyroid gland has been fully removed a couple of years ago.

From what I've seen aspartate has better intracellular penetration than inorganic forms of lithium but not as good as orotate. But it might work. I've seen people using both of these forms for their bipolar disorder. But you also have to look at the dose - the aspartate dose I've seen here is usually way lower than in orotate supplements. The orotate here starts with about 5 mg of elemental lithium per pill.

 

[Wonkmonk]

what is 162 mcg for you in terms of mcg/kg?

About 1.7 µg per kilogram. I weigh about 95 kg. I have TSH 0.5-1.0 with 162µg T4.

Yes, me too! I usually adjust to dose changes but it seems that for me the right T4/T3 balance is imperative. I think its because we have extensive chronic virus in our CNS

My hypothesis is that I have chronic intracellular HSV-1 infection that is causing my CFS. I have consistently HSV-1 IgG ">1:20,000" (it's so high the lab can't even give the exact value) which is extremely high. For comparison, I have EBV IgG 1:128.

I know I am getting a lot worse when I get even mildly hypothyroid, and a possible explanation would be that HSV-1 is replicating much better in a hypothyroid state. There is a study in rats where this effect was 10-fold, i.e. ten times more replication in hypothyroid rats:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23883178

BUT: The same study says that replication is a lot LESS replication in hyperthyroid rats and there are a host of other studies that show thyroid hormones (both T3 and T4) can suppress herpes simplex reactivation.

So if HSV-1 is really the cause, why am I getting so much worse when I get in a hyperthyroid state? It should suppress HSV-1, but I am getting worse.

So maybe the Akt activation effect of the thyroid hormones is stronger than the inhibitory effect. Or thyroid hormones don't affect intracellular replication (possibly abortive/noncytolytic) in the same way as lytic replication.

But you also have to look at the dose - the aspartate dose I've seen here is usually way lower than in orotate supplements. The orotate here starts with about 5 mg of elemental lithium per pill.

The supplement I could order via amazon says it has 5mg elementary lithium. But I will ask in my pharmacy if they have a real medication with lithium. The quality is usually better than for supplements.

 

[pamojja]

Iritu1021 It seems only Lithium Aspartate is available in Germany (via Amazon). Would that be similar to orotate?

Swanson Europe has it: https://swansoneurope.com/en/swanson-Lithium-Orotate.html

They usually sent from a warehouse in Germany.

 

[Iritu1021]

About 1.7 µg per kilogram. I weigh about 95 kg. I have TSH 0.5-1.0 with 162µg T4.



My hypothesis is that I have chronic intracellular HSV-1 infection that is causing my CFS. I have consistently HSV-1 IgG ">1:20,000" (it's so high the lab can't even give the exact value) which is extremely high. For comparison, I have EBV IgG 1:128.

I know I am getting a lot worse when I get even mildly hypothyroid, and a possible explanation would be that HSV-1 is replicating much better in a hypothyroid state. There is a study in rats where this effect was 10-fold, i.e. ten times more replication in hypothyroid rats:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23883178

BUT: The same study says that replication is a lot LESS replication in hyperthyroid rats and there are a host of other studies that show thyroid hormones (both T3 and T4) can suppress herpes simplex reactivation.

So if HSV-1 is really the cause, why am I getting so much worse when I get in a hyperthyroid state? It should suppress HSV-1, but I am getting worse.

So maybe the Akt activation effect of the thyroid hormones is stronger than the inhibitory effect. Or thyroid hormones don't affect intracellular replication (possibly abortive/noncytolytic) in the same way as lytic replication.



The supplement I could order via amazon says it has 5mg elementary lithium. But I will ask in my pharmacy if they have a real medication with lithium. The quality is usually better than for supplements.

As I said earlier, my thought is the same - that hypothyroidism predisposes me to viral activation within my CNS and peripheral nerves. I think my primary issue is EBV and maybe HHV-6, and I thin these viruses have slowly traveled over time from the oropharynx and nasal mucosa nerve endings all the way to my limbic system.
The excess thyroid hormone might be triggering an attack on the nervous cells by the immune system similar to what happens in MS but involving different tissue. The immune system will destroy all the virus infected cells but it triggers a massive surge of inflammation in CNS which ultimately will do you more harm than good. It's a good defense mechanism if you're trying to fight off a flu virus that just landed in your oropharynx but it's a terrible mechanism if there is a virus that has by now infected most of your CNS.

So, killing the virus is not the right approach because we will suffer in the process too. The goal is to strike a compromise with your virus - you don't want to kill it at the expense of your own tissue but you want to make sure your cellular conditions keep it in check and don't allow it to write amok. This is probably what's in the best interest of the virus too - they probably want a healthy host that lives a long life.

I don't think of these type of viruses as "simple fragments of DNA", I think they come with very intelligent programming. Their push to replicate might be a part of their evolutionary survival mechanism - something they do when they detected that the host is becoming frail and senile (such as would indicated by low metabolic rate which has traditionally been a sign of old age).

As for lithium, the pharmacy might give you an inorganic form, such as citrate or carbonate. That's the one that's most commonly used for prescription but I'm not convinced it works as well as organically bound forms which have better tissue penetration. It might work but require much higher doses which would be difficult for sensitive people like us to tolerate.

 

[Iritu1021]

@Wonkmonk
I forgot to mention that I take 100 mcg if I use my ideal body weight as recommended for thyroid calculations I end up with the same dose/kgas you: 1.7 mcg/kg. If I use my actual body weight it would be less. But I also have an intact thyroid gland but I've tried to mostly to put it out of business and take it out of the equation because of the thyroiditis issues + lithium.

 

[pattismith]

About 1.7 µg per kilogram. I weigh about 95 kg. I have TSH 0.5-1.0 with 162µg T4.



My hypothesis is that I have chronic intracellular HSV-1 infection that is causing my CFS. I have consistently HSV-1 IgG ">1:20,000" (it's so high the lab can't even give the exact value) which is extremely high. For comparison, I have EBV IgG 1:128.

I know I am getting a lot worse when I get even mildly hypothyroid, and a possible explanation would be that HSV-1 is replicating much better in a hypothyroid state. There is a study in rats where this effect was 10-fold, i.e. ten times more replication in hypothyroid rats:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23883178

BUT: The same study says that replication is a lot LESS replication in hyperthyroid rats and there are a host of other studies that show thyroid hormones (both T3 and T4) can suppress herpes simplex reactivation.

So if HSV-1 is really the cause, why am I getting so much worse when I get in a hyperthyroid state? It should suppress HSV-1, but I am getting worse.

i have a low T3, and I had outbreaks of HSV1, but since I started liothyronine intake (low dose), I didn't experience a single HSV1 outbreak....Even when I was under a very big stress pressure some months ago....And until yesterday, and today bingo a small outbreak!

What have I changed? I tryed to lower my liothyronine intake every third day for less than two weeks!

 

[S-VV]

This is so interesting. Ron Davis found no trace of viruses in the blood, and yet persistent tissue infections show up again and again.

And then there is the issue of HPA/thyroid downregulation being an adaptive response from the organism, or a defensive mechanism of the infectious agents. The difference here is crucial for treatment approaches

 

[Iritu1021]

This is so interesting. Ron Davis found no trace of viruses in the blood, and yet persistent tissue infections show up again and again.

And then there is the issue of HPA/thyroid downregulation being an adaptive response from the organism, or a defensive mechanism of the infectious agents. The difference here is crucial for treatment approaches

I've seen a theory about HSV virus spread - the virus mainly hides in sensory ganglia and their nuclei (I think especially Trigeminal area for many of us) and then from there it travels into the brainstem nuclei (where it can affect NTs levels) and then seeds itself into hypothalamus (at the vulnerable spot that lacks BBB) - from where it can spread to the rest of the limbic system.

Only an active infection would show up in blood, not a nerve dwelling infection.

 

[S-VV]

Only an active infection would show up in blood, not a nerve dwelling infection

That's what I thought, but Ron Davis and others have said that PCR should be able to detect viral particles in blood even if they are tissue infections.

What do you make of it?

 

[Wonkmonk]

I've seen a theory about HSV virus spread - the virus mainly hides in sensory ganglia and their nuclei (I think especially Trigeminal area for many of us) and then from there it travels into the brainstem nuclei (where it can affect NTs levels) and then seeds itself into hypothalamus (at the vulnerable spot that lacks BBB) - from where it can spread to the rest of the limbic system.

Only an active infection would show up in blood, not a nerve dwelling infection.

After several years of illness, I got pain and discomfort in the kidney area (both sides). I am wondering if the virus could establish a chronic intracellular infection also in the kidneys. Dr Lerner hypothesized that chronic abortive EBV infection mainly infects the heart, so in principle, it could also be possible for other organs.

 

[Wonkmonk]

That's what I thought, but Ron Davis and others have said that PCR should be able to detect viral particles in blood even if they are tissue infections.

Would that be the case if it was an abortive nonlytic infection in which no complete virions are formed as hypothesized by Dr Lerner?

 

[wigglethemouse]

This is so interesting. Ron Davis found no trace of viruses in the blood, and yet persistent tissue infections show up again and again.

Just to correct - Ron Davis has presented several times that in a sample of 20 patients the amount of DNA virus detected was no different between patients and controls, he found the result surprising, and will continue to look.

 

[Iritu1021]

Just to correct - Ron Davis has presented several times that in a sample of 20 patients the amount of DNA virus detected was no different between patients and controls, he found the result surprising, and will continue to look.

But where's the sample from - blood, cerebrospinal fluid? I don't see how it would be possible to detect a latent virus - especially CNS virus - in the blood. Viral DNA lives inside the cells so if the cells are not being actively destroyed and the virus is not actively reproducing, then where will the DNA come from? Especially in a tissue like neurons which has very low natural turn over rate (unlike, let's say liver or epithelial cells) and is shielded from the rest of the body.

I don't really follow Davis' research but I doubt he collected tissue from sensory ganglia (which I'm not sure is quite feasible to do unless we're talking autopsy analysis) any other tissue to me would seem irrelevant.

 

[Iritu1021]

But where's the sample from - blood, cerebrospinal fluid? I don't see how it would be possible to detect a latent virus - especially CNS virus - in the blood. Viral DNA lives inside the cells so if the cells are not being actively destroyed and the virus is not actively reproducing, then where will the DNA come from? Especially in a tissue like neurons which has very low natural turn over rate (unlike, let's say liver or epithelial cells) and is shielded from the rest of the body.

I don't really follow Davis' research but I doubt he collected tissue from sensory ganglia (which I'm not sure is quite feasible to do unless we're talking autopsy analysis) any other tissue to me would seem irrelevant.

The scientists are only now starting to catch up that Alzheimer's has viral etiology - and that disease has been studied WAY more than CFS.

 

[Wonkmonk]

What is the half-life of lithium (aspartate)? When I take 5mg a day, will it build up in the body or is it excreted the same day (e.g. like B vitamins)?

 

[Wonkmonk]

Interesting that 150-600mg of lithium per day seems to be considered "low-dose" in psychiatric treatment.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5322244/

 

[Iritu1021]

Interesting that 150-600mg of lithium per day seems to be considered "low-dose" in psychiatric treatment.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5322244/

The half life for lithium is 24 hours, so you should reach a steady state by day 5.

Yes, the dose is very low by psych standards but it seems that orotate and aspartate are much more potent because it's more bioavailable so can't compare directly.