Insomnia Rant Me Too

[heapsreal]

Well, that was a bust. I tried 2000mg tryptophan first, because I had that on hand. Then I added the Jarrow and Gaia herbs when they arrived. No changes.

2 nights ago I added 470mg ashwagandha and 100mg phos serine and was up all night. Mitigating circumstances.......decided to keep trying. Last night I increased the phos serine to 200, and I don't think I slept longer than 45 minutes at a stretch.

I also have this paradoxical (awake) reaction to Ambien (at half the smallest dose) and melatonin (every dose, every type). It seems that this should be a clue of some kind. On the other hand, benadryl works pretty well, but it destroys my memory.

Grrrrr.

bugger, is it worsening sleep or its no better?
Just try 500mg of the PS and see how it goes.
Sometimes when in a bad cycle of crap sleep we need to hit it harder with some meds to break the cycle.
Instead of ambien have u tried traditonal benzo's like temazapam or valium etc i think sometimes insomnia can just make one so wired, calming it down with meds, then supps might help after this has calmed down???
Instead of benadryl an alternative is to try other antihistamines like atarax or phenergan might work but without destroying your memory. Otherwise book in with michael J's doc or Elvis' doc, lol.

 

[maddietod]

So you think I'll do better on a dose of PS 5x bigger than the one that kept me up all night? I'm a bit worried to try it, as I also had a pounding heart for the 1st 3 sleepless hours. That only happens from caffeine or physical exertion usually.

My normal sleep pattern is to fall asleep OK, but wake 4 times a night.

Good ideas; I'll schedule with my doctor to figure out the next step. Meanwhile, I'll try some other antihistamines.

Thanks!

 

[heapsreal]

So you think I'll do better on a dose of PS 5x bigger than the one that kept me up all night? I'm a bit worried to try it, as I also had a pounding heart for the 1st 3 sleepless hours. That only happens from caffeine or physical exertion usually.

My normal sleep pattern is to fall asleep OK, but wake 4 times a night.

Good ideas; I'll schedule with my doctor to figure out the next step. Meanwhile, I'll try some other antihistamines.

Thanks!

is PS making sleep worse for u or no effect?? If its making it worse then stop it and try it another time when your out of this bad run of crap sleep??

 

[maddietod]

Any good GP can test for hormones--if they are willing! And, unlike some things, the results are fairly obvious!

Sushi

I'm going for a sleep study tonight.........I've tried all of these suggestions and nothing has changed. I'll be seeing my doctor again after the study, and I want to ask her about hormones. Which hormones do I want tested, re sleep? She'll order whatever I want, if I can explain what it's for.

 

[heapsreal]

I'm going for a sleep study tonight.........I've tried all of these suggestions and nothing has changed. I'll be seeing my doctor again after the study, and I want to ask her about hormones. Which hormones do I want tested, re sleep? She'll order whatever I want, if I can explain what it's for.

Get adrenal hormones tested, cortisol and dhea, then sex hormones tested, progesterone being too low or estrogen to high can be a big issue for the girls. From your PM u said u dont have many problems falling asleep but maintaining good sleep so maybe the sleep study will be good as RLS or apneas are known to mainly disrrupt sleep.
Did your doc put u on any sleep meds??

 

[maddietod]

My doctor wants the sleep study before she recommends any meds. Which makes a lot of sense to me.

So what exactly are the hormones? She's thinking cortisol (which tests normal, am draw), and I remember that there are other adrenal hormones besides dhea....but can't remember what they are. Do they even matter?
I'm far beyond menopause, so I'm also unsure what the benefit would be of sex hormone testing re sleep. My estrogen will of course be low.

She's interested in the names of the non-Benadryl antihistamines for sleep that you told me about. Of course I couldn't remember the names, but I'm going to talk with her about them. Since Benadryl worked so well, I'd like to try the Atarax.......depending on the results tonight.

 

[heapsreal]

My doctor wants the sleep study before she recommends any meds. Which makes a lot of sense to me.

So what exactly are the hormones? She's thinking cortisol (which tests normal, am draw), and I remember that there are other adrenal hormones besides dhea....but can't remember what they are. Do they even matter?
I'm far beyond menopause, so I'm also unsure what the benefit would be of sex hormone testing re sleep. My estrogen will of course be low.

She's interested in the names of the non-Benadryl antihistamines for sleep that you told me about. Of course I couldn't remember the names, but I'm going to talk with her about them. Since Benadryl worked so well, I'd like to try the Atarax.......depending on the results tonight.

4 times a day saliva cortisol is what they normal do if they think its affecting sleep. Also remember that if something falls in the 'normal' range doesnt mean its optimal.
The idea of hormones is really to get them back to alevel of a younger healthier person as well as in a balanced way. menopause would have your hormones levels really bottomed out, so its about growing old gracefully and feeling like crap or getting hormone levels back to a younger persons level. Increasing progesterone levels can help many women with sleep issues, anxiety etc as it has a calming effect on the nervous system.

Good luck with the sleep study, let us know how u go

 

[taniaaust1]

Maybe you'd find another antihistamine wont give you the side effect the benadryl is. I sometimes take the over counter sleep aid drug called Doxylamine Succinate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doxylamine_succinate for sleep which is an antihistamine (that was one heapsreal got me onto ) I use it alone at times while other times I use it in combo with other things.

*the pills I got of it are 25mg ones but for ages.. I found just quarter of a pill worked for me for a while (till I developed tollerance and had to increase to half a pill). So I suggest if you try it and have these pills to trial upwards from a quarter of a pill.

 

[maddietod]

Well, they should call it a "You won't sleep very well tonight!" study. All those wires! Results take about 2 weeks to come in, so no news for a while.

Tania, I tried doxylamine, and that didn't work either. I tried a half and then a whole tablet - Heaps gave me the same warning about dosage - and I found it relaxing but not helpful with sleep. Meaning, muscles felt sort of softer, but I woke the same number of times etc.

I think I've now tried everything recommended on PR for sleep that's not a prescription. Hence the sleep study, so I can talk with my doctor about meds. If I've got terrible apnea I'll go for the machine, but otherwise I'm hoping to try other antihistamines first (like Atarax).

So yesterday I saw my doctor at 7:45, pulled my back out at 10, made an appointment for the sleep study, got a filling replaced at the dentist at 3, and went for the sleep study at 9. The couch is calling me.............

 

[taniaaust1]

sorry to hear that madie, its a terrible place to be in. (I take prescription benzo sleep drug -Temazapam occassionally.. not often due to risk of tollerence thou my specialist when I started it had me take for 5 days straight to try to bring my sleep forward a bit at a time (my sleep was so far back that we didnt manage to bring it forward much only about a couple of hours in those 5 days to like 4 to 4.30am). Nowdays Im just very happy now if i can get to sleep by 2.30am and more accepting of my screwed up circadian.

I hope they find something on your sleep study which is treatable.

 

[Rand56]

Has anyone ever done "mouth taping" a Buteyko method? If so, any positive or negative results?

http://www.normalbreathing.com/l-mouth-taping.php

Someone once told me my issues could be related to possibly having sleep apnea. I've never done a sleep study. I hear they are pretty expensive and I have no health insurance. I don't even know if someone had health insurance if a sleep study would even be covered. I acutually read some negative feedback from a couple people online in that the sleep study..they make you try to go to sleep before you're even accustomed to go to sleep, and they said it's hard to either fall asleep or stay asleep with all that chit attached to you. I actually tried taping my mouth one night according to the instructions on that website above, the thing is it didn't stay on me. I don't know if that is a definitive clue that I always sleep with my mouth open and breathe too much thru it or could be from me either not putting the tape on properly or it just coming off when I could be rolling around in my sleep. I was almost tempted to try to put some heavy duty duct tape on my mouth but I have this fear of waking up feeling like I am being sufficated because my right nostril always seems like it's about 75% blocked. Yes it clears up when I lay on my left side..but the easiest way for me to fall asleep is on my stomach. I'm just wondering if anyone has had any success with this mouth taping in that it made you feel more refreshed in the morning waking up.

Rand

 

[maddietod]

I wouldn't tape my mouth shut as an experiment, because if it IS sleep apnea, you need the oxygen. Apparently what wakes us up (if it's apnea) is low blood oxygen due to blocked airways - the brain signals the body to wake up and breathe.

My insurance fully covered the cost after my (very high) deductible. So I don't know what the full cost would have been......but yes, it's expensive. It IS harder to sleep with all those wires on, but the point isn't for them to see how much sleep you get a night. It's to see what makes you wake up, and what keeps you awake. From the tech's POV, my study was very successful.

 

[Rand56]

hi madie

Thanks for the heads up on the mouth taping. Maybe my fears were justified since I don't really know if I do or do not have sleep apnea. Do you know what some other signs and symptoms one could have if one has sleep apnea? I would guess one would be an extremely dry mouth when waking in the morning but maybe not either. My mouth seems a bit dry, but nothing extreme like I feel like I need to guzzle down a bunch of water upon wakening. Thanks also for the positive feedback on your sleep study being a success.

Rand

 

[maddietod]

Rand, I'll be interested to see if I have apnea. I have no indications that I do - no dry mouth, or waking snorting. I wish I'd get results faster!

Madie

 

[heapsreal]

Sleep studies are crap arent they. When i had one done i had 2 periods of sleep lasting 10min and 15min i think, apparently enough to rule out apnea. But i sort of knew it wasnt my problem because even at home i would sleep like that. I think u have to sleep to have sleep apnea???

 

[maddietod]

Lol Heaps! I asked the tech if I snore, and she said yes. She added that's a good thing, because it means I got into deep sleep cycles. So apparently I did better than your 25 minute total!

 

[August59]

Your cortisol "curve" is just like mine. AM corisol is very low and then mine starts rising to it's peak by 12noon and just has mild ripple all the wat through 12am and it is still his, but by 8am it has hit bottom again. My intergrative doctor wants to have my aldosterone check, but he hasn't decided when to test it. I think he is going to check aldosterone and the do the full "Renin" test, which I think checks the whole loop with your kidneys and I forgot whatelse. If the aldosterone wants to stay consistantly low, we may order the compounded transdermal aldosterone from Canada and see what effects it will have on trying to keep things balanced.

I've been following Heaps' Insomnia Rant (http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...o-phosphatidylserine.19901/page-2#post-307036), and am about ready to try some of his supplements.
What hasn't worked for me is:
Any type/dose of melatonin keeps me awake or does nothing.
Benadryl (antihistamine) works well, but causes memory loss.
7mg dhea every morning made no difference.

My cortisol (by saliva testing) is bottom of normal am and top of normal range pm - backwards, but in range.

I have tryptophan on hand, and have ordered phosphatoserine and withania. So I'm thinking of starting with these 3 and seeing what happens.

Since I already have the tryptophan, is there any point in starting with it on its own? To see if it does anything? I'm wondering if it's best to somehow test these individually and in combinations, or if they work best together.

I'm still hoping to avoid sleep medication, but if this doesn't work, I'll have to cave. I sleep very lightly for the first hour or two, and wake up 4 times a night.

Madie

 

[heapsreal]

So you think I'll do better on a dose of PS 5x bigger than the one that kept me up all night? I'm a bit worried to try it, as I also had a pounding heart for the 1st 3 sleepless hours. That only happens from caffeine or physical exertion usually.

My normal sleep pattern is to fall asleep OK, but wake 4 times a night.

Good ideas; I'll schedule with my doctor to figure out the next step. Meanwhile, I'll try some other antihistamines.

Thanks!

Talking to madie the other day about the phosphatidylserine she was using did have a high amount of phosphatidylcholine which can be quite stimulating, PS its self can be stimulating to some but helpful for sleep with others if night time cortisol is high, trial and error is the only way to find out i suppose.
My wife commented to me today that i have beem sleeping well the last few weeks, not waking her up in the middle of the night and walking around the house or hearing me tap away on the computer at strange hours.

cheers!!

 

[maddietod]

And in the life is funny department:

I pulled my back out 2 days ago, and went to see an osteopath today.......I hadn't seen him for years (since this last happened).
1. He prescribed valium for 3 nights, so I'm going to find out how benzos work for sleep!
2. I asked if he's a cranial osteo, and the short answer is it permeates everything he does with patients.
3. He asked lots of questions about testing I've had, including hormones......so now I've found my hormone doctor. I'm going to start seeing him every 2 weeks or so.

Meanwhile, my regular local doctor called in the prescription for Atarax, so I'll be trying that for sleep once I'm done with the valium.

It's a good day!

 

[Sallysblooms]

So great you are finally sleeping Heaps!