Ila Singh commentary on detection in journal "Viruses"

[Cort]

An easy to read commentary article published in a journal that gives free access to the public... I think this article was written to reassure patients like us..

I think it was a multi-purpose article; it took researchers to task for not employing the best methods; it informed them what they are, it told them - guess what my more definitive study is something to look forward to (and here's why), and it supported patients . Nice

 

[Cort]

I've never heard about that - is it well-recognised in establishment psychiatry? Is it a recent discovery?

I've actually just heard that that is so - haven't actually seen anything on it (or looked)

Here's an interesting article on infection and inflammation and depression

http://psychcentral.com/news/2009/04/01/chronic-infection-may-spawn-depression/5079.html

and here's West Nile Virus induced depression by the CDC. The CFS team at the CDC does believe inflammation and immune activation plays a role in CFS - they just don't research it. They are tied in with Emory doing studies that interferon activation induces 'sickness behavior' - fatigue, muscle pains, fluey sensations, etc.

http://www.cdc.gov/eid/content/13/3/479.htm

 

[Cort]

Check this out as well - from the same link above

indeed, 75% of those (with West Nile Virus) reporting no previous history of depression had high CES-D scores. Understanding the pathology of this outcome and determining whether the depression is situational (a result of prolonged recovery) or caused by chemical changes in the brain related to inflammation are critical. Depression was not associated with loss of physical functioning, sex, or age - (very different from CFS!)

Depression after encephalitis, regardless of etiology, is not uncommon. Depression and personality changes in humans have been previously reported as a neuropsychiatric consequence of Lyme disease, Nipah virus, tickborne encephalitis virus, and Saint Louis encephalitis virus infections (7–10). After the encephalitis lethargica pandemic from 1917 to 1926, depression, mania, and obsessive-compulsive disorder were observed in postencephalitis patients (11). These observations led to the understanding of the role of the basal ganglia in mood, personality, and obsessional syndromes. In a mouse model experiment, infection of the brain with Venezuelan equine encephalitis virus resulted in a serotonin presynaptic deficit and postsynaptic hyperreactivity of the serotonin system (12).

(some evidence that the basal ganglia is involved in CFS)

Inflammation of the brain can result in an alteration in the neurotransmitter serotonin, which may lead to the development of mood disorders (13). Capuron et al. identified a significant proportion of patients in whom depression developed after cytokine therapy for cancer. The neurotoxic inflammation induced by cytokines resulted in decreased levels of tryptophan, the amino acid precursor for serotonin. This decrease was positively correlated with the development and severity of depressive symptoms in patients.

The long-term clinical sequelae of WNV neuroinvasive disease need to be further defined. By understanding potential outcomes and determining whether certain interventions such as physical therapy, counseling, and antidepressant drug therapy can improve recovery, we can better understand prognosis and potential treatment interventions. Physicians should note that depression and personality changes could be important neuropsychiatric consequences in patients with clinical WNV infection.

 

[Cort]

Lets not get stuck on mood disorders, check out this on RA

Some researchers suspect that rheumatoid arthritis is triggered by an infection in people who have inherited the tendency to develop rheumatoid arthritis. Other environmental factors are currently being examined as triggers, such as prior exposure to immunizations, medications, etc. Other researchers believe that hormones may play a role in the development or severity of r

heumatoid arthritis.​

 

[Cort]

Back to mood disorders but I was so skinny I was diagnosed with anorexia nervosa

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10933123

Anorexia nervosa (AN) is a serious illness with no definitive treatment. Clinical and research evidence led to the hypothesis that some children with AN may have a pediatric autoimmune neuropsychiatric disorder associated with streptococcus (PANDAS), similar in pathogenesis to other hypothesized PANDAS disorders.

There's also a question about lupus and other autoimmune disorders

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1257453/?tool=pubmed

Diseases such as type I diabetes mellitus, lupus erythematosus, myocarditis, rheumatoid arthritis, and multiple sclerosis often manifest themselves in association with microbial infection.

 

[Sasha]

All interesting stuff, Cort - I think depression is interesting in this context because unless it's immediate and profound (say, 24-hour onset concurrent with acute onset viral symptoms) it must be hard for researchers to separate endogenous from reactive depression; and in terms of treatment, I wonder if aetiology (infectious agent vs psychological factors) would affect which treatments would be expected to be effective. Interesting for us as PWC, of course, since depression can be both a symptom of ME/CFS and a reaction to the circumstances of being so ill. Makes it all the more interesting that other conditions traditionally viewed as having a psychological origin such as anorexia or BPD are getting linked to infectious onset.

I bet this will be an interesting decade for psychiatry/clinical psychology. I wonder what territory they'll be left with at the end of it!

 

[pictureofhealth]

There is also the 'psychiatric' condition Schizophrenia which was linked by one researcher to a cat virus/parasite I remember reading several years ago. I don't know if this research ever 'panned out' or was followed up.
I don't think psychiatry has anything to gain by conducting biomedical research into what have been come to be considered psychiatric conditions - hence our dilemma.
I think many patients over the years have suffered by assumptions made by professionals who buy into the prevailing theory of the day, and then there is no incentive for them to look further afield for a better explanation. As usual, the patients carry the burden of this.

That is why it is so wonderful to have clear headed and bright scientists working with us now, such as Judy Mikovits, Vincent Lombardi, Ila Singh and the Ruscettis. They are not prepared to accept the general consensus simply because its convenient and universally 'agreed'. They are asking questions, which is what scientists did in the good old days before political interference.

 

[pictureofhealth]

Off topic, but just found the Schizophrenia - Cat parasite link.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/health/sfl-schizophrenia-link-082510,0,430261,full.story

There are quite a few if you Google.

The psychs are going to run out of patients soon I hope and close up shop ...

 

[urbantravels]

They are asking questions, which is what scientists did in the good old days before political interference.

No such thing as "the good old days" in this regard, I'm afraid.

 

[usedtobeperkytina]

Interesting that Freud's influence made shift to think much of unexplained conditions were from childhood experiences.

Now, the shift is to look for more organic disease causes for those still not explained and those previously thought to be from childhood experiences.

Also, remember that in US, many who have been diagnosed with depression actually have CFS. So some of that research of depression will likely includes CFS folks.

I know a person who was diagnosed as having CFS here. She went to Florida. Two docs said, "No you have depression." So she enters a study there on depression. She had severe and continuous reaction to drug. Half-way through the study, they pulled her from the study, telling her they can't tell her what she has, because they don't have specialty to diagnose it. But they told her she doesn't have depression.

Tina

 

[Cort]

I know a person who was diagnosed as having CFS here. She went to Florida. Two docs said, "No you have depression." So she enters a study there on depression. She had severe and continuous reaction to drug. Half-way through the study, they pulled her from the study, telling her they can't tell her what she has, because they don't have specialty to diagnose it. But they told her she doesn't have depression.

Tina

We just don't frigging fit anywhere. The heart abnormalities apparently confuse cardiologists, the 'mood' problems confuse psychologists. I was told by my doctor that I was depressed; he sent me to a psychologist who, after talking to me for 15 minutes, said "I've met alot of depressed people and you, my friend, are not depressed" '
They need a whole category for us and FM and people with these types of disorders.

 

[glenp]

We just don't frigging fit anywhere. The heart abnormalities apparently confuse cardiologists, the 'mood' problems confuse psychologists. I was told by my doctor that I was depressed; he sent me to a psychologist who, after talking to me for 15 minutes, said "I've met alot of depressed people and you, my friend, are not depressed" '
They need a whole category for us and FM and people with these types of disorders.

I think that pretty well sums it up. geeeez

I bet there are many who "qualify" and are seeing psychiatrists for panic attacks, when in fact it is dysautonomia. When they find that out???? Bye bye psychiatrist

 

[Jemal]

I don't think it's rocket science to figure out if someone is depressed or not. I am not a doctor, but I can easily see differences between depressed people and people with CFS. Depressed people don't really care about their life or work, as most people with CFS want to be able to enjoy life again and work. They are fighting the disease every step. When they get sicker and sicker, of course they get depressed...

I saw a doctor at work for about 15 minutes and the only thing we did was talk. Her evaluation was that I was clearly physically ill and that the mental component was caused by the illness. I really don't think it's that difficult to diagnose.

 

[Cloud]

Gotta go with Jemal on this. Depression is very easy to diagnose and to differentiate from ME/CFS. The difference is very clear and not at all vague and overlapping....and this is true for depression that's secondary to the illness, or even co-morbid. If any practitioner were to take enough initiative to educate themselves properly, they would easily be able to differentiate depression from ME/CFS. Of course proper education involves stepping outside their comfort zone of lazy, complacent apathy following outdated and incorrect information.

 

[pictureofhealth]

It is possible of course that the common link between ME/CFS, depression, fibro, heart conditions and neuro conditions is = inflammation, ie the natural attempt of the body to heal and rewire itself. We have been used to dividing medical conditions into this one and that one and creating medical specialities, but the difference may not be so much between them all and the link may be inflammation. The difficulty is that the 'cure' is also the problem. Wherever you have inflammation you have pain, reduced function and disturbance of sleep etc.

The question for me, I suppose, is why is a process which is supposed to protect and heal the body so damaging and not self limiting? And why do some people get inflammation in one part of the body (eg arteries, as in coronary artery disease) and others get it elsewhere (joints, as in arthritis, brain as in ME, connective tissue as in - forgotten name of condition! etc). Is it genetic weakness that makes one area of the body vulnerable as opposed to another, or perhaps a retrovirus or other immune system anatagonist preferring a particular organ, or a general stirring up of the immune system, or physical trauma, or ageing wear & tear, or a bit of everything? What are we missing here?

I think also in the greater evolutionary scheme of things, these illnesses indicate that we have reached the limits of the human organism in being able to repair itself and regenerate health. We are not as evolved as we might like to be. Most of us don't age in perfect health for eg we gradually deteriorate. A lot of this is due to inflammation and free radicals. Diet is not the whole answer, nor is environment.

Perhaps the next step will be an evolutionary biological one for the body - as huge as the change in walking on all fours to becoming bipeds and the increase in the size of the human brain as a result?
If the human organism can not evolve and solve this inflammatory riddle, it will not survive.

 

[Jemal]

The condition CFS might also be caused by the immune system, not the virus per se. CFS could be a state you reach when your immune system wakes up and realises that a virus has infected mayor parts of your body and starts a full out attack, causing inflammation.

 

[omerbasket]

I know a person who was diagnosed as having CFS here. She went to Florida. Two docs said, "No you have depression." So she enters a study there on depression. She had severe and continuous reaction to drug. Half-way through the study, they pulled her from the study, telling her they can't tell her what she has, because they don't have specialty to diagnose it. But they told her she doesn't have depression.

I wonder: Was she diagnosed with depression by a psychiatrist?

 

[usedtobeperkytina]

I don't know, honestly.

Tina