How to Lower Norepinephrine

[ttt]

My norepinephrine is through the roof. I feel like I'm on cocaine all the time, but without the high. It's making it impossible to get any decent amount of sleep, even though I'm taking all this stuff every night to sleep:

Trazodone (75mg)
Bioidentical Progesterone
Theanine (400mg)
Tryptophan (1,500mg)
Valerian (lots)
Seditol Plus
GABA (1,500mg)
California Poppy (lots)
Chamomile (lots)
Lithium Orotate (10mg)
Lemon Balm
Passionflower

I Googled how to lower norepinephrine and came up with some medications that are also used to lower blood pressure. But my blood pressure is already too low. Anyone have any suggestions?

Thanx,
T

 

[Lotus97]

There's a thread about it here:
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/how-to-lower-norepinephrine.22518/

 

[ttt]

Thanx, Lotus! BTW, I love (and hate, but in a good way) your quote!

 

[Valentijn]

My norepinephrine is through the roof. I feel like I'm on cocaine all the time, but without the high. It's making it impossible to get any decent amount of sleep, even though I'm taking all this stuff every night to sleep:

How was it measured? Urine, blood, blood platelets? Were any other neurotransmitters measured, especially dopamine, epinephrine, glutamate, or GABA?

 

[A.B.]

If I had to guess I would say that your working theory is wrong, because you're already taking a lot of supplements and they don't seem to be working very well. The following is a pretty strong statement:

I feel like I'm on cocaine all the time, but without the high. It's making it impossible to get any decent amount of sleep

I too would like to know how the information that norepinephrine is too high was obtained.

Are you hyperthyroid by any chance?

 

[ttt]

My neurotransmitters were measured using urine. Norepinephrine was very high, epinephrine and serotonin were low, and tryptamine was normal. But I'm also basing this on symptoms. The thread that Lotus97 mentioned (http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/how-to-lower-norepinephrine.22518/) was a phenomenal discussion about norepinephrine, and my symptoms and history completely match everything that was said about high NE. I'm not hyperthyroid -- I'm a little hypo. As for my supplements, they help a lot, but they're just not enough to counteract the cocaine-like effect, esp. in the 1-5am time frame. And then the less I sleep, the more cocaine-y (and simultaneously exhausted) I feel the next day, which totally matches what was said in that thread about how NE becomes the body's last resort for how to produce energy.

 

[Crux]

Hi ttt;
I'll bring up some possibilities for why you're overstimulated, but they may be not true in your case.
The Seditol product looks to be a good anxiolytic. ( mostly contains the herbs ziziphus and magnolia.)
http://www.naturalsleepresearch.info/Seditol_09_Study.pdf

But l-theanine can sometimes provoke a paradoxical effect, stimulant, in some people. ( It has for me.)
http://chronicfatigue.about.com/od/treatingfmscfs/a/norepinephrine.htm

Another possibility is that chamomile may be causing a reaction, (allergic). It's a member of the ragweed family. But I would think that you would also have some other symptoms, like inflammation, itchiness, and swelling.

Some people also will have a paradoxical reaction to valerian root. But I haven't read of its increasing NE. ( could be worth a search.)

I would suspect that the theanine is causing this reaction, because of my own experience.

 

[ttt]

Crux, this is interesting. I didn't know that about Theanine. I knew that it's a methyl donor, which isn't great for a COMT++ person, but I didn't know about it increasing NE. When I take it, it mellows me out. Does that mean it's not increasing NE or could it somehow be increasing NE while simultaneously mellowing me out?

Chamomile ... I do have inflammation and itchiness, but I've had that since before starting chamomile, so I'm not sure it's related. What I'm not really thrilled about is that the chamomile and California poppy are both extracted with alcohol, as is one of my valerians (I've got 3 different kinds I use). If I could calm my nervous system down, I would love to stop taking some of this stuff. I'm highly resistant to benzos, but at some point, taking all these things, I've gotta wonder if the combination is almost as bad as benzos.

 

[Crux]

Hi ttt;

If the theanine mellows you, then, well that's good news.
Even though I don't know my snps yet, I'm also sensitive to methyl donors, and they are powerful.
I read on the other high NE thread that you've started Dr. Yasko's protocol. Folate can increase NE, so, maybe it's the cause of this overstimulation. Other people have had these reactions to high dose folate, including inflammation and itching. ( I've also had this.)

Have you tried some niacinamide, ( non-flushing B3)? It may help with metabolizing the excess methyl groups.

 

[Sushi]

ttt

Also, urine measurements of neurotransmitters don't necessarily correlate with levels in the body. You may be excreting a neurotransmitter because you have an excess of it but you may also be excreting a high level of it because the body is not able to retain it.

This was noted in one of my urine neurotransmitter tests but I'd have to hunt down the reasons why you would excrete a neurotransmitter rather than utilize it or absorb it. But I do remember that an autonomic specialist mentioned that many of us have damage to our norepinephrine receptors--could be related?

Sushi

 

[ttt]

Folate can increase NE, so, maybe it's the cause of this overstimulation. Other people have had these reactions to high dose folate, including inflammation and itching. ( I've also had this.)

Have you tried some niacinamide, ( non-flushing B3)? It may help with metabolizing the excess methyl groups.

I'm only taking 67mcg of folate (1 drop of MethylMate B), so I'm kind thinking it's not that. But niacinamide -- yes. 1,000mg. Thank you!

 

[ttt]

Sushi, that's interesting about the urine neurotransmitters. I had heard that the tests weren't very accurate. But in my case, my symptoms make me a poster child for high NE, so regardless of what the test says, I know my NE is high.

 

[rlc]

Hi ttt, has your Doctor said anything about these test results? High urine norepinephrine is caused by these diseases http://en.diagnosispro.com/differential_diagnosis-for/urine-norepinephrine-increased/10068-154.html a disease like Pheochromocytoma sounds like it would fit with how you are discribing some of your symptoms see http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/pheochromocytoma/DS00569/DSECTION=symptoms

These kinds of tests are diagnostic tests that are used to diagnose often serious diseases, and the results must be properly investigated by speacilist doctors who know what they are doing. Trying to find ways to lower norepinephrine only risks possible serious side effects, and will not fix the underlying cause, and delays treatment. So my opinion is that you need to see a good speacilist to find what is causing these results.

Hope this helps

All the best

 

[ttt]

Thanx, rlc. Wow -- that's scary stuff. Fortunately, I think the thread that Lotus97 referred to above (http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/how-to-lower-norepinephrine.22518/ ) really explains my high norepinephrine really well. I think my body is just having such a hard time producing energy to function that I'm pumping out NE as the only thing I can do to keep myself going. This would also explain why when I don't sleep, I'm way more manic the next day, because the only way I can generate energy to function is from NE, but when I sleep, I'm much calmer the next day. My adrenals are definitely waaay blown out, but I don't think it's from a tumor -- it's from the physical stress of impaired methylation, toxins and infections combined with huge emotional stress, drawn out over a period of many years. The irony is that it's such a vicious cycle now, because the NE prevents me from sleeping, which prevents me from healing, which just creates more NE.

 

[A.B.]

Do you ever have "the high" during and a hour after meals?

What times of the day does it usually present?

What diet are you following?

PS: if you haven't exlcluded pheochromocytoma you really should.

 

[Valentijn]

Sushi, that's interesting about the urine neurotransmitters. I had heard that the tests weren't very accurate. But in my case, my symptoms make me a poster child for high NE, so regardless of what the test says, I know my NE is high.

I think that can be a dangerous way to diagnose things. I assumed my GERD, pain, and nausea were from hiatal hernia, which runs in the family. My doctor gave me a poke in a certain spot, I said "OW" and she informed me it was my gallbladder.

You're having a symptom which can be caused by many things (especially glutamate, which is a problem for many ME/CFS patients), and since you're having a beneficial effect from increasing the substance which you think you need to decrease, your initial guess is somewhat likely to be the wrong one.

My norepinephrine is low, based on blood platelet testing which basically gets the average level over the past 3 months. Having low norepinephrine is extremely nasty - crippling orthostatic intolerance, sometimes into the realm of being bed bound. Having high glutamate (or other excitatory neurotransmitters) is also very nasty. It's important to find out where the real problem is (or at least be open to it being something else) so you can find a proper treatment.

Your low blood pressure is not a symptom of high norepinephrine. Norepinephrine raises blood pressure. Low norepinephrine causes low blood pressure.

Urine testing is just giving you a snapshot. It really isn't the whole picture.

One very cheap and easy way to test to see if your symptoms are actually caused by high glutamate is by taking a dose of N-acetylcysteine (plus glycine if that doesn't work alone). Brain shuts up pretty fast with that, and goes into a more normal state.

 

[ttt]

Do you ever have "the high" during and a hour after meals?

What times of the day does it usually present?

What diet are you following?

PS: if you haven't exlcluded pheochromocytoma you really should.

My diet is about 40% carbs (very low glycemic only), 45% fat (healthy fats only), and 15% protein. As for times of day, it's hard to say, cause I'm so up and down. Mornings are usually terrible, and then after lunch I get a real manic feeling, then late afternoon/early evening tends to be my best time. And of course, the middle of the night (1-5am) seems to be a realy bad time. I guess I kind of have a bit of the "high" after meals, but I've varied what I eat, and it doesn't seem to be dependent on that.

How would one test for pheochromocytoma?

 

[ttt]

Your low blood pressure is not a symptom of high norepinephrine. Norepinephrine raises blood pressure. Low norepinephrine causes low blood pressure.

Well, my blood pressure, which has historically been extremely low, is now just plain "low," so it's higher than it used to be. Dunno if that's relevant.

One very cheap and easy way to test to see if your symptoms are actually caused by high glutamate is by taking a dose of N-acetylcysteine (plus glycine if that doesn't work alone). Brain shuts up pretty fast with that, and goes into a more normal state.

I think those are both no-no's on the Yasko protocol. She says glycine can be excitatory if your glutamate is already high. And as for NAC, I can't remember what she said about it, but just that I think she said not to. Maybe it's for CBS+ people. What is NAC supposed to do for glutamate? I do know that my glutamate is high, but I'm pretty sure the norepinephrine is a bigger issue than the glutamate based on intuition as well as what I read on the other thread I referenced.

 

[A.B.]

How would one test for pheochromocytoma?

Urinary catecholamines are usually measured to look for pheochromocytoma. I think that's exactly the test that told you that you have high norepinephrine.

 

[Valentijn]

What is NAC supposed to do for glutamate? I do know that my glutamate is high, but I'm pretty sure the norepinephrine is a bigger issue than the glutamate based on intuition as well as what I read on the other thread I referenced.

NAC combines with glutamate and glycine to form glutathione, thus lowering the glutamate while creating something useful.