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How to lower norepinephrine

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by ktred, Mar 26, 2013.

  1. ktred

    ktred

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    I have some mutations that depending on my current epigenetics, seems turn my dopamine to nor-epinephrine.

    Anyone have any thoughts on how to deal with high norepinephrine once it has arrived on the scene. It can certainly make things uncomfortable. I have tried GABA and 5HTP it seems to help to some extent, but I'm hoping that there's something more effective.
    Thanks
  2. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Tundras of Europa
    Olive Leaf Extract has been quite effective for me.
  3. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    Increasing cortisol levels may lower norepi and u could try pregnenolone before looking into things like hydrocortisone. U need to do some more research on this along with looking into different rhthyms ie circadian rhthyms and cortisol rhthyms. Try to get your bodies timing right should help??
    Tristen likes this.
  4. Emootje

    Emootje Senior Member

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    Deep slow breathing, fasting and avoiding sugar/caffeine has been helpful for me.
    Alpha 2 agonist and the meds shown below (with the exception of cocaine and TCA's) can be helpful.

    ader.JPG
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  5. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Find the origin for dysregulation of the ANS whether it be neurological, HPA axis, or immune dysfunction (i.e. in overdrive) and fix that.

    Depends on severity.

    If NE is not a huge deal then palliative mechanisms are fine.

    If like me several years ago it was raging and destroying my life (along with other imbalances) then it is more harm than good to try to cover it up without finding the real reason. Mine was an autoimmune disease. And in my case tricyclic antidepressants which a neurologist tossed my way with no functional diagnosis damn near killed me. Also if the body is really in bad shape and there is a crisis in energy production and NE is being called over and over to fill gaps, that cycle has to be broken. A big factor there is Krebs cycle, thyroid hormone, B-vitamins, methylation, etc.

    But if like most on here where it is somewhere in between the usual suspect is hormonal imbalance and maybe some neurotransmitter decoupling (GABA, serotonin, etc. vs catecholamines). Like Heapsreal stated cortisol is one of the main anti-NE agents since it calms the immune system and dampens then indirectly the ANS, which for many is where much of their NE is made (not simply in the adrenals).
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  6. voner

    voner Senior Member

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    This is great! I have just started studying this. Anybody out there able to give any references for information on how cortisol controls or inhibits norepinephrine?

    Also, if you want to increase cortisol, a easy way is the ingestion of licorice. You have to make sure you get licorice root not the De-Glycyrrhizinated version. Licorice blocks the enzyme that turns Cortisol all back into Cortizone. So it ends up with more Cortisol circulating in your body. you have to be careful if you are ingesting mineralocorticoids like Florinef.
  7. voner

    voner Senior Member

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    I have the same problem with tricyclics and antidepressants. If you mentioned pain or sleep problems these are some of the first things a medical doctor Suggests.

    I have POTS, And before I could figure out some of the intricacies of my symptoms myself, the doctors at suggestion Savella (a SNRI) For muscle pain and then very low-dose amitriptyline for sleep.

    When I went off of Savella, My heart rate upon standing went down 10 to maybe 15 bpm. When I went off amitriptyline the symptomatic change was dramatic. Early-morning fatigue, fog and fatigue during the day dropped significantly.
  8. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    How can I tell if my symptoms are from high norepinephrine or high cortisol? And is possible to have both?
  9. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    At a guess and my experience noradrenaline feels like a speedier, jumpy type of energy where cortisol feels like a calm energy that increases endurance and helps more with joint and muscle aches and pains.It does take alot of adjusting treatments to get the right feel for it i guess. Too much HC for someone who hasnt used it before is going to make them feel very speedy and jumpy too. Thats my best explanation??
  10. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    A lot of times I experience what would best be described as the fight or flight response (angry/scared)
  11. EJE

    EJE

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    I'm taking Clenil (a type of corticosteroid) for asthma and have recently had to increase the dose. Usually I have sleep reversal not being fully awake until late morning, but the last couple of days I've woken much earlier and been wide awake(but not been going to bed any earlier). Could this in anyway be linked to the corticosteroid / Clenil? Not sure at the moment if it is a good thing or not as my body doesn't seem sure what to make of it!

    Any advice or suggestions would be very welcome. I'm not a biochemist and live in the UK where access to complicated tests is hard to come by! Many thanks.
  12. Questus

    Questus Senior Member

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    I would suggest having your catecholamines tested. It's the only accurate way of determining your actual level of norepinephrine.

    Best,
    Questus
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  13. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    That is usually a stress indicator related to norepinephrine. Your body raises cortisol to try to handle the stress. But after a while it goes of rhythm peaking too late or start to get depleted. Virtually EVERY adrenal fatigue is first preceded by a period of excessive or upregulated cortisol production. This is the drain. The crash comes when you can't make much of anything anymore. In fall 2009 one week my morning random cortisol was a 30 (yes 30). Two weeks later a six. Then back up. Then like a 3. That was when I started passing out. Not fun.

    What gets tricky is NE vs glutamate. For me the former is tell-tale by what your CV signs are like. The latter is about your sensory system and your hypothalamus.

    Do you get night sweats at all? Weird temperature issues when sleeping? Problems with feeling to hot? That is usually NE. If you can hear a flea make a sound on the back of a semi six miles away while trying to sleep. That is glutamate. Sucks when a person gets both at once. Ick. Bad memories. High glutamate enhances pain perception. NE drains the body of resources since it is your last of defense energy source.

    People who have high cortisol at night just mean they aren't ready to go to bed. They are too alert relative to where they should when they lay down. Their clock is moved, etc. Natural cortisol production is not the enemy. But if not following the correct exponential like production pattern then you may be showing some signs of other issues. The fact that cortisol is supposed to drop at night is what allows the body to increase innate healthy inflammation (like various prostaglandins, etc. and not to be confused with disease related inflammation) and that is HOW you sleep. Melatonin is just a signaling trigger. The immune system not being as carefully corralled is what send you off to dreamland believe it or not.

    Those of us with disease inflammatory states have a different problem. The immune system is trying to suppress the adrenal chronically in order to what it perceives is its job. Eventually it wins. Once it wins the adrenal crash and even non-cortisol hormones tank. When your progesterone, DHEA, pregnenolone, aldsosterone, and sex hormones, tank then you are in real trouble. However, even before the immune system achieves victory, crack can show through ... it is when those cracks start to break out that NE comes out to play when you least want it. Think of cortisol as one of the main (but not only) chains on your sympathetic nervous system. Trust me you don't want the sympathetic nervous system / NE to break confinement, especially since it eggs on inflammation in a very vicious cycle. Adreno used to joke about my analogy as if I was discussing creature from a monster movie. Heh. Kind of not far from the truth in certain respects.

    The rapid fight or flight response is not the cortisol. It is the NE generated on the fly in your ANS (not even your adrenals, reaction time too slow). In the distant past when you ran into that cave bear and your heart rate shot up and you climbed a tree in a hurry (assuming there was a tree) that response needed to be johnny on the spot. But ... you aren't supposed to live that way. The more time in your day that NE is active, the worse the signs of the immune vs adrenal struggle.

    Btw the caveat to measuring catecholamines is it only tells you NE / DA in the periphery. Doesn't tell you about the ANS / CNS concentrations. But analysis of the metabolites like VMA, HVA, etc. may show you something. I get sick of all these companies that offer neurortransmitter tests for the body. They sure seem to not want to talk about the BBB. But then again what are you going to do? Have spinal taps? I wouldn't :)
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  14. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Regular licorice can be really really bad. It inhibits 11-beta HSD2 which means glucocorticoids now do not get turned into cortisone and they bomb your mineral corticoid receptors so aldosterone no longer gets the fine control. Yes it will raise cortisol but it can cause hyperaldosteronism which can be really, really bad. It can be a problem depending on amount and other factors even if you are not taking Florinef.

    Believe it or not the DGL version is NOT 100% removed of glycyrrhizin. That is a tricky process. But I assume a good manufacturer brand is ok. The reason I say this is people who take Florinef are sometimes warned to not ingest large amounts of the DGL version. That should speak volumes.
  15. fozzaw

    fozzaw

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    dopamine beta hydroxylase is a copper containing enzyme so high copper would make things worse
    st john's wort may reduce DBH activity
  16. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    dbkita
    Thanks for the detailed answer. Awhile ago I mentioned that when I don't sleep well (which has been going on for the past 8 months) or I do too much activity (even spending time at the computer) rather than either of those making me tired, they had the opposite effect. Do I remember correctly that you said that would be norepinephrine what's causing it? If so, is that necessarily related to the adrenals or could it just be the body compensating for fatigue? When I was sleeping well for a long period of time (over a year) my symptoms went away, but now they're coming back. I think all the supplements I'm taking now are just bandaids if I'm not getting enough sleep. Of course, improvements are most likely to be temporary if a person's underlying illness isn't addressed, but I wouldn't underestimate the power of sleep (and also limiting activities and sources of stress).

    Before the last time the symptoms happened my cortisol was high and low, but DHEA was normal. If I'm experiencing NE symptoms does that necessarily mean my DHEA has dropped or could it be progesterone and/or pregnenolone that dropped? I know I should get tested (and last time we talked about this you seemed to be getting annoyed that I wasn't able to get tested...), but my doctor doesn't think it's necessary and I can't afford another doctor right now. I was taking pregnenolone until I found out it could lower GABA and increase NMDA. Who wants that? I'm only half joking.
  17. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    "I think all the supplements I'm taking now are just bandaids" <---- This!

    Note I left out the sleep part, since while important for sure, it alone will not likely fix the many symptoms you have discussed in your posts.

    And yes what you describe about driving yourself on the computer is a dead NE giveaway. Fortunately it is a more benign stage. It can get much worse leading to big crashes once the adrenals cave. And no most chronic stimulation of NE release is from the ANS and is not sourced in the adrenals. This is a common misconception. You have to find why the NE rushes. Less sleep certainly tips it the wrong way but sleep alone won't get you out of it.

    And the whole point of NE is ... the body compensating for severe or chronic fatigue unless of course a true fight of flight response. Look at it another way a person with a dysregulated constant immune system attack (autoimmune or infectious) is essentially in a long perpetual state of fight or flight. Your body when sick would love for you to do nothing, lay around all day, sleep and do zip. But that is not how life works. The problem is over time if not corrected the sensitivity of the demands for no stress or lot of rest get higher and higher and the penalties in terms of NE get worse and worse until a person crashes. By then the adrenals are kaput if things go far enough.

    NE may correlate with other adrenal dysfunction. But 9 /10 times you have to look at the immune system. That is where the command override authority sits. The other 1/10 are endemic neurotransmitter imbalances.

    Did pregnenolone help you ? Why were you on it? It is the mother hormone. If you are deplete I would forget the GABA / NMDA worries they would be circumstantial in comparison. But I also would not try to self-medicate it without a doctor guiding you. Way to many interconnections. As an aside, my wife is on pregnenolone along with progesterone and estradiol and all her hormones completely balanced out (well except for some Armour thyroid her whole family has issues with). I took her to my same doctor a couple of years ago. She was like totally cured of her imbalances in like 3 visits. I was both happy and ridiculously envious. Sigh.

    It is ironic since I should have been powering down hours ago. I have a bad head cold starting. I should be trying to sleep. But I am all full of "fake" energy at the keyboard? Why? NE. I am at that stage where I am still building to the peak. I am not looking forward to Easter weekend. This NE reaction is how my body reacts to inflammation at this point in my life because I spent so much of it getting swarmed by inflammation and ultimately living on NE. It should not be like that. It now usually isn't given the meds I take. But ... yeah ... you see the conundrum, right?

    Anyways, now bedtime.
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  18. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

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    dbitka...y would you not do a spinal tap apart from the fact that it is invasive and painful?
  19. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    I'm not dbitka, but I wouldn't have one either. Read this and see if you really want to risk it:

    http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/003428.htm

    Re the original question, I feel that my adrenaline/noradrenaline/epinephrine/norepinephrine levels are lower since adopting a low-carb diet. I feel calmer and sleep better, among other improvements. It's a version of the leaky gut diet with supplements.
  20. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    I have been taking 2.5-5mg pregnenolone in the morning which has been helping my mental state greatly (not just brain fog but depression and just feeling more like myself.

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