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How Gut Bacteria Modulate the Immune Cells

Wishful

Senior Member
Messages
5,684
Location
Alberta
https://newatlas.com/science/gut-bacteria-microbiome-cancer-immunotherapy/

I thought this might be of interest to those whose interest is in possible Gut-ME links. It found that certain species of gut bacteria were producing inosine, which was playing a role in activating anti-tumour t-cells. Maybe a similar function alters t-cell activation in a way that affects the ME immune response.

Maybe just a coincidence, but the paper ( https://www.mdpi.com/2075-4418/9/3/70/htm ) in a recent thread found that lowered hypoxanthine was linked to PEM, and hypoxanthine is a breakdown product of inosine.
 

mitoMAN

Senior Member
Messages
625
Location
Germany/Austria
There have always been theories about microbiome being possible cause of auto immune disease and even psychiatric disease. And I think that link is true.
Many Patients with these disease that I know of, also suffer from chronic gut problems.

I was in Psychiatry in 2018 when doctors still kept major depression as a possible diagnosis... In the end, the professor that treated me told me about faecial transplant having experimentally healed several patients. Sadly it was still not easy to apply for getting one done.

I myself have had unfixed and undiagnosed (tried everything with "regular" gastrointerologists) since my illness started 16 years ago. For me, gut problems and fatigue and CFS symptoms started hand in hand.
 

Wolfcub

Senior Member
Messages
7,089
Location
SW UK
I had gut problems in 2018 in the 4th week of the strange sudden flu-like illness which never went away but became PVS next and then became what I and two doctors surmised may be ME/CFS.

The gut symptoms were unexpected and unusual for me. They lasted a few days only, and completely disappeared, whereas all the other symptoms plus PEM and awful exhaustion persisted.

Then this year the gut symptoms hit out of the blue again (no obvious trigger)....went away, came back, went away, and so on.
In the midst of all that I got coronavirus, so everything got blurred and mixed up. Hard to know what was what.

Now since then my gut has been unpredictable, but when I look back at my diary I can see that there is much natural improvement over 4 months. No treatment regime except diet management when needed, and natural symptomatic care when needed. Otherwise nothing.

The only diet modifications have been:
less fibre generally.
Less fruit (though I aim for one small portion daily, usually green grapes, banana or orange.) I love apples but have stopped eating them as they did upset my gut.
No tomatoes, no onions, and much much fewer lentils, beans etc
No stock cubes. Salt and pepper only.
No spices.
Very few herbs added to food, if at all.
No bran
Simple steamed vegetables and fish. Boiled eggs. Nothing fried any more.
Otherwise things have stayed the same. I have still eaten butter and toast, edam cheese (no ill effects) Chocolate (no ill effects.) Nuts (no ill effects.) I still have black morning coffee with much fewer issues than I had in 2018-19

So something weird has happened. During this unusual gut mess-up (which fingers crossed is improving) - and even post-Covid, I have noticed something unfathomable and hard to explain.
My energy has improved. The Beau's lines on my nails have worked their way out and no new ones! My tolerance to caffeine and alcohol has improved
PEM is less. I coppiced Hazels, and split the logs for seasoning 2 weeks ago. Pulled a fallen bridge out of the stream....Got exhausted, had short mini crashes, but not like before.

I may be speaking too soon. Anything can happen, but this feels weird. Yes, gut related somehow...but why should my energy improve??

I wouldn't say this except it's been going on a few weeks and seems to be a trend. I look at my diary and see the changes.
Was it something in my diet all along?
Has some change happened in the gut which was no fun but which has shifted something else?
Has some "trauma" kick-started some helpful process?
Too early to say I guess. Keep truckin' ....haha
 

Wishful

Senior Member
Messages
5,684
Location
Alberta
Yes, gut related somehow...but why should my energy improve??

The paper is evidence of a direct link between microbiome and t-cell activity. There's no reason why there couldn't be other chemicals released by other species that have noticeable effects on the body. I had that awful type IV sensitivity for 2.5 years, and it vanished with a simple bout of food poisoning. Certainly a dramatic effect. I think it changed my gut enough for the other resident species to drive one specific species to extinction. Maybe you lost a bad bug too, or got a new good bug started. Enjoy it while you can. :thumbsup:
 

YippeeKi YOW !!

Senior Member
Messages
16,047
Location
Second star to the right ...
I may be speaking too soon. Anything can happen, but this feels weird. Yes, gut related somehow...but why should my energy improve??
It's soooooo good to hear that things are going a little more smoothly for you .... I know its been a lot of hard paddling in rough water for a while now ....

I agree with @Wishful ..... its possible something shifted the balance of power in your microbiome, allowing the good guys to get the upper hand over something nasty like mild c. dificilis, and kick it's buggy little butt out the door ...

Revel in it !!! It's a major triumph !!!! Maybe not the whole queso, but a large, tasty, bite ....


Onward and upward :rocket::rocket::rocket: !!!
 

Wolfcub

Senior Member
Messages
7,089
Location
SW UK
I agree with @Wishful ..... its possible something shifted the balance of power in your microbiome, allowing the good guys to get the upper hand over something nasty like mild c. dificilis, and kick it's buggy little butt out the door ...

Revel in it !!! It's a major triumph !!!! Maybe not the whole queso, but a large, tasty, bite ....

Onward and upward :rocket::rocket::rocket:!!!
Yeah....weird. It's hard to know what goes on in the darkest recesses of our being :D

I have been reduced to peeling chickpeas (very Zen):lol: But at least I can eat them again, when I wake up from peeling them in my sleep from the sheer Zen-ness ! Yay!

Thank you for your positivity. Many rockets to you too, dear Yippee :rocket::rocket:
 

Rufous McKinney

Senior Member
Messages
13,251
My energy has improved. The Beau's lines on my nails have worked their way out and no new ones! My tolerance to caffeine and alcohol has improved

Greetings @Wolfcub

Pondering your description: I have an idea-....

What if the COVID bout- gave your body a real enemy to fight with. And then it decided to stop fighting with you.

If autoimmune issues are at play, this might be possible. Some of that is likely going on with us.

There was the whole issue of folks with severe gut issues should go find themselves a Helminth parasite (hook worm) and make friends with it. Now your body has: an enemy to work on and its not you.
 

Wolfcub

Senior Member
Messages
7,089
Location
SW UK
What if the COVID bout- gave your body a real enemy to fight with. And then it decided to stop fighting with you.

If autoimmune issues are at play, this might be possible. Some of that is likely going on with us.

There was the whole issue of folks with severe gut issues should go find themselves a Helminth parasite (hook worm) and make friends with it. Now your body has: an enemy to work on and its not you.
Maybe...you could be right.

But my gut is still not like it was before. It's not so bad and I can manage things so long as I am careful. Energy has improved to a degree where I notice it, but I still get some rough times. I don't know what's going on, it's like something hidden inside is doing something, making changes I have no control over. Some are good.
But migraine auras are increasing at the same time.
Not out of the woods by any means.
Anyway I have hope in rockets :rocket: as @YippeeKi YOW !! set that rockin' rocketin' ideal for me.