Histamine loops, why we can't get rid of it...

[Kimsie]

I just read a post by Critterina today that lead me to a very interesting article with a very interesting chart. Here is the article Histamine. I have been trying to figure out how to get rid of histamine in my son, and the chart showed me something I didn't realize before. The pathways to getting rid of histamine are full of feedback loops that can block your ability to get rid of histamine. It isn't enough to look at the first level down from histamine - you have to look at the next level to see that you are supporting that level, too.

I think it is easiest to see it in the chart so here is the chart with my notes in red.

I got the information about aldehyde dehydrogenase needing niacin from the Wikipedia page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldehyde_dehydrogenase

I think that niacin, or niacinamide which is better as a supplement, might be the missing ingredient for some people who are trying to get rid of excess histamine.

I was giving niacinamide 1 gm three times a day to my son and he was gradually getting better, then I didn't give the evening and morning dose of niacinamide and he was much worse that day even though I was still giving the other supporting supplements. I can't be 100% sure that the niacin was the cause of that because I can think of another plausible explanation, but I have started him back on it and plan to continue and see how it goes.

If you see some cofactors that are missing or have any suggestions about the chart please let me know.

 

[Kimsie]

Wow! I just tried this on my son, I mean I was already giving him the niacinamide, but I thought that the niacinamide was working in another way, so I didn't pay attention to the cofactors for DAO. So with this new information I gave him a bunch of B6 (P5P), and that didn't do much by itself, but then I gave him 20 mg of copper (he has been short on copper maybe because of using a lot of vitamin C or because he gets a lot of zinc)(always give copper with food to avoid nausea) and after 30 minutes, with everything all in his system together it was like magic. His symptoms evaporated! (His symptoms are directly caused by histamine, not by low SAMe or glutathione due to high histamine.) Now this should take the pressure off his methylation cycle, so he will have enough SAMe and glutathione.

 

[tyson oberle]

Wow! I just tried this on my son, I mean I was already giving him the niacinamide, but I thought that the niacinamide was working in another way, so I didn't pay attention to the cofactors for DAO. So with this new information I gave him a bunch of B6 (P5P), and that didn't do much by itself, but then I gave him 20 mg of copper (he has been short on copper maybe because of using a lot of vitamin C or because he gets a lot of zinc)(always give copper with food to avoid nausea) and after 30 minutes, with everything all in his system together it was like magic. His symptoms evaporated! (His symptoms are directly caused by histamine, not by low SAMe or glutathione due to high histamine.) Now this should take the pressure off his methylation cycle, so he will have enough SAMe and glutathione.

What were your son's symptoms that went away?

 

[Kimsie]

Fatigue and depression. I had already found that I could make them go away through the SAMe cycle, too, which is the other pathway to get rid of histamine, but only for a day or so and then the feedback would stop it from working.

Last night he was feeling bad again when he got home from school and I messed around with some things until I remembered that my husband had to have niacin AND vitamin C in order to eliminate his asthma, neither of them worked alone. I hadn't given my son any vitamin C since the AM so I gave him about 3 grams and that did the trick and he felt good again in about 15 minutes.

So it looks like vitamin C is definitely a cofactor for the DAO pathway and shouldn't have a question mark like I put in the chart.

 

[Kimsie]

I just discovered last night that you have to take some magnesium, too, or it doesn't work as well. The Wikipedia page on aldehyde dehydrogenase actually mentions that some aldehyde dehydrogenases use magnesium, but I didn't know if it applied to the one that degrades histamine, but from my son's positive results from adding over 400 mg of extra magnesium (he was already taking the RDA but it wasn't enough to last all day) I would say it must be a cofactor for the DAO pathway.

 

[chilove]

Thanks so much for this! I've been dealing with crazy histamine intolerance symptoms since my endocrine system crashed a year and a half ago.

 

[Kimsie]

You're welcome. I haven't found any one site that mentions everything that I have found necessary to get rid of a lot of histamine by the DAO pathway. I have it spread out in this thread so I'll say it again succinctly. About 1 or 2 gm of vitamin C with meals, copper is needed but you probably don't need extra, you probably DO need extra B6 or P5P, the activated form, magnesium - you might need 300-600 mg twice a day, niacinamide or niacin - the more histamine, the more you need, so some people need 3-6 grams but it could be a lot lower, like 500 mg with meals. Each person is different so you might have to experiment. The great thing is that for direct histamine symptoms it works amazingly quickly once everything gets absorbed into the bloodstream.

If you are supplementing the methylation pathway, some of your histamine is being taken care of by that pathway and when you start having less histamine, that pathway will start reducing the amount of SAMe you make gradually over the period of a few days and you might need more niacin or niacinamide after 3 or 4 days, so if it works at first and then stops working that is what is happening and you need to increase the niacnamide or niacin.

 

[adreno]

@Kimsie

I find it weird that B3 has a histamine degrading effect on your son - this study would suggest B3 to make the problem worse:

Excess nicotinamide increases plasma serotonin and histamine levels

 

[Dannylingo]

@Kimsie

I find it weird that B3 has a histamine degrading effect on your son - this study would suggest B3 to make the problem worse:

Excess nicotinamide increases plasma serotonin and histamine levels

Ill have to say that maybe it's best for over methylated people, or people that mega dose methyl bs since that can deplete niacinamide and a deficiency in that is known to cause dermatitis. A week ago i stupidly took 15 mg of methyl folate and was plagued with dermatitis ever since. Just minutes after taking niacinamide today has resolved the inflammation almost completely. Thank god!

 

[adreno]

Yeah, there has to be a fine balance between methyl donors and B3. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to reach an equilibrium yet, I constantly find myself going from one end to other (either needing more folate or more B3).

 

[Dannylingo]

Yeah, there has to be a fine balance between methyl donors and B3. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to reach an equilibrium yet, I constantly find myself going from one end to other (either needing more folate or more B3).

Have you expiremented with other b vitamins? I mask all my low folate symptoms completely with biotin as long as I accompany it with b2. There is a study I can look for if you want we're it proves biotin has a direct relationship with folate uptake in the liver of folate deficiency.

 

[PeterPositive]

Interesting topic. I have problems with histamine, but frankly I find it elusive.
I get histamine-like symptoms especially in the cold season with dry wind and I have dermographism.

Food like mackarel, tuna, shrimps should worsen the situation... but to my surprise they never do. Maybe some type of tuna, like red fin which I eat rarely. Yellow fin = zero effect.

Bananas more often that not make the situation worse while spinaches can break hell loose. Last time I had some I had a bad 20 minutes of pins and needles all over my body. Thousands of them

Do you also get these strange reactions to food, where not all of the high histamine cause reactions?

 

[PeterPositive]

Forgot to ask. What would be a good enough dose of Vitamin C to get an anti-histaminic effect?
Is 1-2 grams enough?

 

[Thinktank]

Forgot to ask. What would be a good enough dose of Vitamin C to get an anti-histaminic effect?
Is 1-2 grams enough?

Depends on the individual. In some more than 300mg can trigger histamine release instead of lowering histamine.

 

[undcvr]

You're welcome. I haven't found any one site that mentions everything that I have found necessary to get rid of a lot of histamine by the DAO pathway. I have it spread out in this thread so I'll say it again succinctly. About 1 or 2 gm of vitamin C with meals, copper is needed but you probably don't need extra, you probably DO need extra B6 or P5P, the activated form, magnesium - you might need 300-600 mg twice a day, niacinamide or niacin - the more histamine, the more you need, so some people need 3-6 grams but it could be a lot lower, like 500 mg with meals. Each person is different so you might have to experiment. The great thing is that for direct histamine symptoms it works amazingly quickly once everything gets absorbed into the bloodstream.

If you are supplementing the methylation pathway, some of your histamine is being taken care of by that pathway and when you start having less histamine, that pathway will start reducing the amount of SAMe you make gradually over the period of a few days and you might need more niacin or niacinamide after 3 or 4 days, so if it works at first and then stops working that is what is happening and you need to increase the niacnamide or niacin.

Hi Kimsie you nvr mentioned this so i assume that you have not heard of it but u can buy the DAO enzyme as a supplement and take it orally. It's known as Daosin. It is studied for its effects on histamines in foods only but taken on an empty stomach I can attest that it gets absorbed and helps to relieve histamine in the blood.

 

[Sporty]

Maddening itch is driving me nuts!

 

[Critterina]

You're welcome. I haven't found any one site that mentions everything that I have found necessary to get rid of a lot of histamine by the DAO pathway. I have it spread out in this thread so I'll say it again succinctly. About 1 or 2 gm of vitamin C with meals, copper is needed but you probably don't need extra, you probably DO need extra B6 or P5P, the activated form, magnesium - you might need 300-600 mg twice a day, niacinamide or niacin - the more histamine, the more you need, so some people need 3-6 grams but it could be a lot lower, like 500 mg with meals. Each person is different so you might have to experiment. The great thing is that for direct histamine symptoms it works amazingly quickly once everything gets absorbed into the bloodstream.

If you are supplementing the methylation pathway, some of your histamine is being taken care of by that pathway and when you start having less histamine, that pathway will start reducing the amount of SAMe you make gradually over the period of a few days and you might need more niacin or niacinamide after 3 or 4 days, so if it works at first and then stops working that is what is happening and you need to increase the niacnamide or niacin.

@Kimsie,
I wasn't online when this thread was developed, so I'm just seeing it now, through a link from another page. I'm really happy for you and your son.
I am also intrigued that your list here sounds a lot like my supplement list. Although supplements alone didn't curb my symptoms - I have twice done the three-day fast and need to do it again - these are the core supplements for me now: Vitamin C, (not copper), P5P (inactive is useless for me), and Mg. I use NADH, 20 mg sublingual occasionally, usually when I have circulatory trouble during cold weather.
I think that there may be a whole area of understanding to be developed regarding histamine in the gut/leaky gut and histamine in the blood. I think that may explain difference between some of our experiences (all of us with histamine issues). If you read the description of histadelia, and imagine the opposite, that's me. But my histamine intolerance is debilitating when it's in full swing. Fasting has helped SOOO much, and I am grateful to have a more normal life most of the time. But the understanding I think still has a ways to go. Thanks for posting that chart with your annotations in red!
Crit

 

[Seven7]

I am trying gastrocrom a histamine blocker will see how I do, also crom nose spray. This graph is helpful but can you pls post the supplements and dose and frequency?

 

[ebethc]

I am trying gastrocrom a histamine blocker will see how I do, also crom nose spray. This graph is helpful but can you pls post the supplements and dose and frequency?

Did gastrocrom help?

 

[Seven7]

Did gastrocrom help?

Is very bizarre, when I take it is as if all the other cfs symptoms are gone but everything focus on the gut and basically all has been down hill on my tummy since then. Not sure what to do. Even the things I could eat now I cannot, so is a love hate relationship. I have no clue what to do, if to stop or keep going.