High Magnesium - Beware!

[liverock]

An Epsom salts foot bath sent me to the ER last April. I think if you have high ammonia/uric acid, it isn't a good idea to supply more sulfate.

Sounds like you had a sulfate build up problem.

Homocysteine has two pathways, one is the MTRR enzyme route where B12 recycles it back to methionine to form SAMe The other pathway is the Cystathionine Beta Synthase(CBS) route to eventually form taurine,cysteine and glutathione which is essential for detoxification.

The problem is if your not methylating very well then more than normal of homocysteine is being drawn down the trans-sulferation(CBS)) pathway, along with methyl products, instead of being recycled via methylcobalamin to SAMe. This causes a build up of to much sulfite/sulfate which prevents the cellular uptake of taurine and glutathione impeding cellular detoxification.

This build up can also cause an increase in the 'fight or flight' response which sounds something similar to what you experienced and the high ammonia and low BH4 are also symptoms of this CBS problem.

Some PR members who have done Urine sulfate strip tests have found initially levels above 1,000mg/l which is 250% higher than the normal level of 400mg/l. Getting this level down helps to increase glutathione and detoxification, and is necessary before increasing Methyl supplementation in some people starting the methylation protocol. @caledonia has detailed a lot of her experiences with CBS problems and has a lot of good information on overcoming them them in her posts and signature.

http://www.heartfixer.com/AMRI-Nutrigenomics.htm#CBS: Alternate Explanation and Generic Plan of Action

 

[Gondwanaland]

Yes, reading caledonia's materials helped me a lot since then.

Yes, my homocysteine was on the rise after having a bad experience with mFolate and then suddenly stopping all supplements 2 weeks before visiting the ER.

What puzzels me is the fact that I never tolerated Epsom salts or Mg glycinate in the 1st place (even when my homocysteine dropped from 12.7 to 7.2 after diet change one year ago) and then taking Mg oxide 4-5 months ago was such a life-changing experience (for the better).

The problem is if your not methylating very well then more than normal of homocysteine is being drawn down the trans-sulferation(CBS)) pathway, along with methyl products, instead of being recycled via methylcobalamin to SAMe. This causes a build up of to much sulfite/sulfate which prevents the cellular uptake of taurine and glutathione impeding cellular detoxification.

I think this is a good explanation, thanks! Also, I associate my bad reaction to taurine supplementation (extreme brain fog and sleepiness) could be explained by high endogenous taurine, also making Mg oxide more absorbable.

 

[Tammy]

@zzz............message/article #15 mentioned inorganic sulfate..........what are the sources? Article mentioned vanadyl and beribine sulfate ........is this inorganic sulfate? The reason I am asking is because many years ago one of my tests indicated I needed inorganic sulfate but it really wasn't clear back then what I should take in the form of a supplement or sources of inorganic sulfate.

 

[zzz]

Sounds like you had a sulfate build up problem.

I have pointed out earlier in this thread, with documentation, that sulfates are harmless in humans. But now, @liverock, you have brought up the possibility of a sulfate buildup problem. I had never heard of this, so I Googled "sulfate buildup". I got a lot of hits with titles such as:

Batteries - How to Remove Lead Sulfate Buildup

Now it's true, you don't want lead sulfate building up on your batteries. And you certainly don't want it in your body, either! But that's because of the lead, not the sulfate.

However, search as I might, I was unable to find any evidence of a sulfate buildup in the human body due to an organic process or anything else, much less a sulfate buildup that is harmful due to the sulfate or that could possibly be responsible for @Gondwanaland's experience. If I have missed something, and there is scientific documentation of such a harmful phenomenon, could you please supply it? If no such documentation exists, please retract your statement, as you may very well be causing harm to others by warning them away from effective treatments that they may need by scaring them off with tales of nonexistent phenomena.

Some articles misleadingly refer to the danger of environmental sulfates, but the problem is not the sulfate itself, which does not exist in isolation, but the molecule of which it's a part. For example, lead sulfate is highly toxic to humans, as mentioned above.

@Gondwanaland, thank you for responding and providing the details of your experience. I think that from what you have said, it is possible to better understand what happened to you.

@zzz when I had a dramatic reaction to MgSO4 that sent me to ER I was in the middle of an albendazole round

Albendazole is generally a benign drug, although it can occasionally cause liver problems, including hepatitis. Since you appear to have problems metabolizing ammonia, albendazole could be problematic. This would still not explain your dramatic reaction, though.

They found no problem with me at the ER, even a body temperature of 94.3 has been considered normal.

From the Mayo Clinic Web site:

Hypothermia is a medical emergency that occurs when your body loses heat faster than it can produce heat, causing a dangerously low body temperature. Normal body temperature is around 98.6 F (37 C). Hypothermia (hi-poe-THUR-me-uh) occurs as your body temperature passes below 95 F (35 C).

(Bolding is mine.) One would have hoped that doctors working in the Emergency Room would have recognized a medical emergency.

Since my main complaint was that I couldn't breathe, they took an X-ray of my lungs and found nothing

The X-ray of your lungs was certainly reasonable, as fluid in the lungs can cause trouble breathing. But when the X-ray found nothing, they should have thought, "What does hypothermia plus respiratory depression signify?" And of course, they should have taken a decent case history of you, which would have provided the definitive answer when you told them about the Epsom salt foot baths. The answer is central nervous system depression due to magnesium toxicity. The antidote is calcium gluconate, given parenterally.

BUT several months prior to this I had tried foot baths for repeated times, always with poor outcomes. Symptoms: burning sensation in the ureters (lower back); "heavy calves" vascular (?) sensation, "heavy eyelids" (which I also get from Mg glycinate); general malaise.

Now I have earlier said that magnesium toxicity does not occur when magnesium is administered properly in a person with healthy kidneys. And certainly the magnesium in a foot bath of Epsom salts gives you far less exposure than a full bath in Epsom salts; such baths are very common, and again, do not cause problems when done properly. So why did you get obvious symptoms of magnesium toxicity from a foot bath?

If what I have said earlier is true, then a problem with the kidneys is implied. And @Gondwanaland, one of the red flags in your previous quote is "burning sensation in the ureters (lower back)". It is possible that the pain was coming from the kidneys or referred from the kidneys. When magnesium passes through kidneys that are incapable of filtering out the excess, pain results. @Gondwanaland, have you had your kidney function thoroughly checked since this incident? If not, I would suggest you get these tests done, as there does seem to be a reason to suspect a possible problem here. If your kidneys are fine, then the problem would seem to be very subtle, and I can't see what it would be.

@zzz............message/article #15 mentioned inorganic sulfate..........what are the sources?

Your question is a little ambiguous. The sources for the article are not mentioned directly, but this information is duplicated in many places that correctly discuss the role of sulfates. If you mean "What are the sources of sulfates?", then any source of sulfur will do, since it will be converted to sulfate when needed by the addition of four oxygen atoms.

Article mentioned vanadyl and beribine sulfate ........is this inorganic sulfate?

Yes. By convention, "organic" chemicals are those that contain carbon, and "inorganic" chemicals are those that do not. Sulfates contain only sulfur and oxygen, so sulfate anions are always inorganic.

The reason I am asking is because many years ago one of my tests indicated I needed inorganic sulfate but it really wasn't clear back then what I should take in the form of a supplement or sources of inorganic sulfate.

Foods containing significant amounts of sulfur are a good way of getting sulfates.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Now it's true, you don't want lead sulfate building up on your batteries. And you certainly don't want it in your body, either! But that's because of the lead, not the sulfate.

Interesting. My hair test showed some lead, and I have an ongoing exposure from paint chipping at home.

However, search as I might, I was unable to find any evidence of a sulfate buildup in the human body due to an organic process or anything else, much less a sulfate buildup that is harmful due to the sulfate or that could possibly be responsible for @Gondwanaland's experience.

I have been trying (not hard enough) to find out exactly if and how sulfate interacts with the urea cycle. I want to understand why MgSO4 was such a threat to my health and why MgO pretty much reversed all the symptoms that took me to the ER.

Albendazole is generally a benign drug, although it can occasionally cause liver problems, including hepatitis. Since you appear to have problems metabolizing ammonia, albendazole could be problematic. This would still not explain your dramatic reaction, though.

It contains sulfur, which is very acidifying and diuretic for me. My feeling is it added to the acidity state I was in. I t was really a bad timing to start this medicine after my folate incident, but my health practitioner was convinced my issues were due to parasites.. The liver connection is that it has to metabolize the ammonia, and bicarbonate is needed for that, but is scarce in high acidity state.

One would have hoped that doctors working in the Emergency Room would have recognized a medical emergency.

Thank you! I always feel abused at ER! I think they distreat any patient who isn't having a heart attack or food poisoning

"burning sensation in the ureters (lower back)".

I found it:

Ammonia is important for normal animal acid/base balance. After formation of ammonium from glutamine, α-ketoglutarate may be degraded to produce two molecules of bicarbonate, which are then available as buffers for dietary acids. Ammonium is excreted in the urine, resulting in net acid loss. Ammonia may itself diffuse across the renal tubules, combine with a hydrogen ion, and thus allow for further acid excretion

have you had your kidney function thoroughly checked since this incident?

After my alkalizing protocol with magnesium oxide and sodium bicarbonate I finally found a good nehrologist who run all the due tests. Interestingly, my serum uric acid and urea has always been in the top of the range or slightly above it.

 

[zzz]

Interesting. My hair test showed some lead, and I have an ongoing exposure from paint chipping at home.

In general, lead paint is not made with sulfate, although some may be, especially to add pigmentation. However, lead itself is very toxic. There's some lead in the environment, so I don't know the significance of "some lead" showing up in your hair test. However, if you have ongoing lead paint chipping at home, this is a health danger, and could easily be contributing to your health problems. It may easily be the most dangerous toxin that you're currently exposed to. I would strongly recommend looking into what you can do to reduce the danger from that lead paint.

I want to understand why MgSO4 was such a threat to my health and why MgO pretty much reversed all the symptoms that took me to the ER.

As the old medical saying goes, "The poison is in the dose." It appears that enough magnesium sulfate entered your body and was absorbed for the magnesium to become toxic. However, in general, magnesium is very good for health. Magnesium oxide is actually about the most poorly absorbed form of magnesium, and most people get little or no benefit from it. However, it appears to be giving you just the right supplementation. For some reason, your body tolerates much smaller doses of magnesium than most people's.

 

[dannybex]

As has been pointed out in many places (including this forum), adrenal fatigue is a myth, not a medical condition. The body works very hard to maintain stable levels of sodium, as the extremes of hyponatremia and hypernatremia can be quite dangerous.

...

As for Addison's disease, there is no such entity as "Addison's Lite", nor does that describe our problems in that area, which have to do with the HPA axis as a whole, and not with the mythical "adrenal fatigue".

I'm assuming that @liverock meant to use the term 'adrenal insufficiency', which is not a myth, and does affect electrolyte levels, etc..

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=adrenal+insufficiency&btnG=&as_sdt=1,48&as_sdtp=

 

[Vphoenix]

I had a similar issue and ended up in ER in 2015 Epson salts, and my chkoride. Your explanation is very useful since I haven't found an answer to why. I have now learned I have methylation problems. In June this year.

 

[keenly]

Somebody once said on this forum that we PWC's are a breed apart. If the rest of people in the world look like horses then we would look like zebras.

We have to be extra careful about the drugs and supplements we take, how much exercise we take, how much rest we have to take and even how much social interaction, in order to cope in the various stages of what is called, attempting to get back to 'normal functioning'.

This often makes us in our eager and early endeavors to get back to 'normal functioning', take stuff we, or our doctors know not a lot about, particularly in the world of minerals such as magnesium.

In my early days of this disease several years ago, I took on board the then current advice to have regular Magnesium flake baths, as everbody knew that "all PWC's have a magnesium shortage". All went well for a while and then I crashed very badly.

It wasn't till investigating the effect that increased magnesium levels can have on other body minerals and the symptoms that can happen,to people like us (Zebras) , that I was able to piece together what had happened.

Most of us know that Calcium must be balanced with Magnesium, but there are other minerals that Mg must be balanced with in the body to prevent out of balance symptoms.

This is a mineral wheel diagram (on the left), showing the various interactions between Magnesium and other minerals including the heavy metals Lead(Pb) and Cadmium(Cd). On the right is the mineral wheel showing Magnesium interactions with vitamins.

http://www.traceelements.com/docs/Magnesium Wheels.pdf

The Sodium(Na) and Potassium(K) levels are particularly crucial for us, because these electrolytes are controlled by the adrenals and most of us have adrenal fatigue, which means we can have lower and usually more unstable levels of (Na) and (K) than normal, causing lower blood pressure. (Some people have only low Sodium or Potassium, not both).

From the diagram it is clear that increasing magnesium is going to make the (Na) and (K) levels even lower,which will make the adrenals more unstable, lowering BP even more, as well as thyroid function through lower (K)

Whilst going through this 'double whammy' energy reduction, the elevated magnesium can also bind to the heavy metals, lead(Pb) and cadmium(Cd) moving them out of the tissues into the bloodstream and organs increasing brain fog, ,as well as heart palpitations through the lower potassium(K). This pretty well sums up all the symptoms I was experiencing.

In my ignorance of those days,whilst putting up with these symptoms I thought I was 'detoxing'!

The reason I mentioned this is more people seem to be taking magnesium through nebulizers and transdermal Magnesium oil and its easy to get into the habit of ingesting too much.

I wouldn't worry if you have been taking your present dose for a long while and have no adverse symptoms. If you really think you are going to increase Mg levels, my advice is to start off low and increase slowly, monitoring symptoms and increasing electrolytes, Sodium and Potassium as necessary along with the other minerals shown.

Dr Sircus, who seems to major in magnesium oil, says people who have Hypothyroidism or Addison's Disease should avoid high intakes of magnesium. We may not have full blown Addison's but some of us could be classified as 'Addison's Lite'

Most of the people without CFS/ME ( Horses), can get away with higher intakes of magnesium because of their higher BP and sodium levels, in fact Mg will help them if they need to reduce their sodium and high BP. However, remember we are zebras not horses,



http://traceelements.com/Docs/The Nutritional Relationships of Magnesium.pdf

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ATP reactions require Magnesium, we NEED to take it. Our cells leak it.

It seems that in light of this one should add balanced electrolytes daily.