High Intensity Training (HIT) and Body By Science

[Effi]

Thanks so much @olliec for your detailed account! I'll need some time to get through it, but I must say it does sound promising. Keep us posted!

 

[JaimeS]

So far so good, people. I took 800-mg Co-Q-10 just to be sure.

-J

 

[whodathunkit]

I was doing consistently 3-4/week, but even though I'm better now, am not managing this.

ahmo, from what I've read that's too much HIT, even the "cardio" kind (that is, more for pulmonary fitness not building muscle). Even that kind of HIT should only be done a couple times per week or maybe 3x/week for very healthy people. For people trying to recover probably 1x/week is enough. So maybe you overdid and that accounts for your setback...? That's kind of what's happening to me right now.

I've been in "step back" part of my cycle lately and had been wondering if I'd simply overworked myself by pushing too much too soon. I've been feeling on the edge of a cold, no desire to do much, etc. I haven't done any extra exercise this week because of that. Reading this thread I realize that's probably what it is. I'm going to take another week off with little to no exercise and then start again.

It's so funny how stuff like this pops to the top of the forum when you need it.

BTW, for anyone interested, I'm finding l-citrulline before working out helps with soreness and recovery time. Nothing can help if you exercise too much, but at least we don't have to be sore about it.

@JaimeS: LUV high-dose CoQ10. It gave me a nice boost last year, and continues to be very helpful, although I will say I didn't ever get much benefit out of it until I started methylation therapy and had begun to improve on that. I tried it a bunch of times over the years but no noticeable effects until last year. But now it's a staple in my regimen. Let us know how you do!

Great thread, @olliec! Thanks again for starting it!

 

[ahmo]

@whodathunkit Yes, I've been thinking about this over the last 24 hrs...maybe I did overdo. Jeez, this is a high wire tightrope act. I'm really looking forward to reading the Myhill article, and trying some strength work. My arms are.... and I haven't been game to do anything, but will now. I'm just in a patch of being restless, craving activity that I can't do...must be spring.

 

[cb2]

@olliec i have that book i saw it at the chiro's office and thought.. 12mins wow! i didnt read much ( i have a hard time focusing) but i looked at the pictures and got an idea of the training regime. I do like however how you have broken it down in smaller steps.. what are your tues and weds exericses? I remember thinking it seemed like a lot and i think i tried it a couple times.. slow moving deadlifts are hard! i also got confused how does the Big five get done in 12mins? I guess that means 12mins of time under load? does this makes sense? i keep trying to find a way to keep moving- or should i say i keep moving, but sometimes that means not doing any else that day. I am excited to read these posts.
thank you

 

[olliec]

@cb2 This is my current regime:
Mon: Press-ups, Wall Sit
Wed: Squat, Plank
Fri: Dips, Chin-ups, Inverted Rows

Most of those are from the James Steele video in my original post. Inverted rows are like inverted press-ups, pulling ourselves up (using rope tied to a door frame) rather than pushing. Youtube can explain more clearly than me. The proper equipment (rope & handles) is called a "suspension trainer" but a bed sheet trapped in a doorframe can work (or do them under a table, I refer you to Youtube again). I do three exercises on a Friday because they are all quite short. My aim (assuming health stable and not relapsing) is to slightly increase the time-under-load each week, which naturally happens as the muscles adapt.

If progress continues and my time-under-load continues to rise, then the total duration will rise. In that case I may need to lower the time-under-load by increasing the intensity - eg squats are taking quite some time, so I may soon switch to doing less, but with a bag on my bag with something heavy in it. I guess it's possible my ability to tolerate longer durations may increase but it's too early to know.

The proper Body By Science programme is about 12mins, across the five (machine based) exercises so allowing a little time to move between the machines it's around two minutes per exercise. It is hard to see in the videos how very hard these exercises are as you can't see the pain, but in the videos you'll see the muscles starting to shake before they fail. From the shaking until the end, it is really quite painful. It is hard to imagine most people doing more than 12mins in one go as it is so hard. The key seems to be to ensure the muscle is under a constant & intense load, and to maintain that constant load until the muscle burns out and stops working - that then triggers the process whereby the body adapts - more muscle, more metabolic efficiency, etc.

For anyone well enough to (carefully please!) to try anything like this I think it is good to just do the exercise to whatever capacity each week. If the muscles fail and go weak, they will be stronger the following week so capacity is likely to naturally increase - there's no great need for pushing ourselves - a tracking spreadsheet will clearly show progress, however slow. The risk of course is the exercise causes a PEM flare so starting small and experimenting over a long period of time is probably sensible.

As I say I don't see this as a treatment for ME, more a way for me to try and get a bit fitter WHILST enduring ME, and if I'm lucky perhaps reduce some symptoms slightly and be a little more active, as well as reducing risks of other diseases rearing their heads.

 

[cb2]

thanks @olliec I wish i could go somewhat and watch the whole sequence in action.. it is soooo very different from anything i have done in the gym or with exercise. have you ever tried cordyceps? they may help with your recovery.

i do about 30 to 40mins of light weight training 4x a week~ i do believe it is important to keep our bodies strong if we are able. and for me it takes a huge stress off..

I like the idea of doing the doug mcguff exerices.. and i like they way you have it split up 3 x a week. honestly i think i would get bored if i didnt have exercise to do a few days of the week.. if it were only 1 x a week.. i dont know what i would do on the other days. i did try to do very slow movements before when i first got the book..and it is really hard.. espeically with the knee joints.. that is what seemed to be an issue for me was the pressure on the joints. but i need to lose weight.

i am glad you are giving this a try and i am looking forward to seeing how you go along! if i can wrap my head around it i might try it too. take care

 

[olliec]

I did try cordyceps, unfortunately like almost everything else I've tried they did nothing but hurt my wallet.

Like you life feels a bit empty for me without exercise/activity, but until recently I've just had to tolerate being pretty inactive (average 1500-2000 steps a day).

Although McGuff says do all the exercises one after another with no rest, there's no way I could do that so it had to be broken up. At some point I might move things around so no muscle is worked more than one day a week, but at the moment I'm focused on maintaining a consistent practice with gradual improvement. It's more rehabilitation than "exercise", and getting into a routine that creates (slow) results, without any significant risk of relapse.

Here's Dr McGuff doing the Big 5 (in a gym, with machines):
Part 1

(describes the machines)
Part 2

(exercises)
Part 3

(exercises)

 

[Strawberry]

@JaimeS Have you still remained PEM free from your trial? Have you tried again?

I am really wanting to try this but am in too severe of a crash to dare. But I will.

 

[JaimeS]

Good time to make a report back, @Strawberry !

Here it is, guys, and it's not all good.

I found I had little issue with push-ups and sit-ups; even days later, I had that generally typical tightness that comes from working out after a long time not doing so. It felt pretty good. In fact, I was frankly quite surprised at how happy my body was with the activity. I actually got endorphins out of the deal. Let me tell you how long it's been since that has happened.

My legs were another matter. I've often heard it said that the quads are the weakest muscle in PWME (and there's some study somewhere that demonstrates it's weakest in comparison to that of controls? Maybe someone can help me find that.)

Despite that the other two exercises were difficult, I proceeded through them without any trouble, or indeed any worry once I began. I didn't get any kind of instinctual 'warning' from exercising them.

But for the squats, I had a weird and dichotomous feeling: my muscles were responding, even found the exercise simple and easy, yet there was some kind of alarm bell ringing in the back of my head. This must be what the psycho quacks were aiming for when they said that there is a 'fear' of exercise. If there is, it plays an important and protective role, as I learned when I ignored it and finished up anyway.

Over the course of the next four or five days, my thighs were noticeably cold to the touch, and felt weak and almost burning. (Lactic acid, I suppose, but that's a surprisingly long shelf-life, if so.) It took awhile for me to accept that this had not been a good idea for me - days, in fact - because I kept thinking that the damage to the muscles would let up. Instead, over the next two or three days, the ache, weakness, and cold / lack of blood flow grew more noticeable. The longer I went from the exercise, the less it felt like typical post-exercise muscle soreness, and the more it felt like my legs were dull tree-trunks pinned at each hip that I could scarcely drag along.

It never tipped me over into a full-blown crash, but I was weaker than baseline for a week afterwards, and could not take it up again the following Wednesday.

If I were to do this again, I would still do the situps and push-ups and even the squats; but for the squats, I would keep it to the lowest possible level and, the moment that I begin to get that weird premonition of damage, I'd stop.

'Premonition of damage' - it sounds completely ridiculous. Yet there's something my body was saying to me about that exercise in particular not being such a hot idea. Perhaps it's the size and therefore mitochondrial demand of the muscle that's the issue. Not sure.

One more person's experience!

-J

 

[ahmo]

@JaimeS

 

[SOC]

@JaimeS,
I started careful, light strength exercise a month ago. I can't do the leg exercises without causing mild PEM. My wild-ass guess is that the bigger muscles need more energy to perform and my body just isn't able to produce enough energy in the short exercise period to keep the big muscles functioning at the level the exercise demands. I did notice that the leg exercises (especially squats!) raised my HR rapidly, even when only doing <30 secs at a time. Exercising smaller muscles does not do that. Rapid HR increase is a good sign for me that I'm using more energy than my body can produce... I think.

I've decided to concentrate on core and arm/shoulder/back exercises and stretching for now rather than continue to push myself into PEM, even if it's mild. I'd rather start low and go slow, even with exercise. As @olliec said, I'm looking at this more as rehab than exercise. No need to push.

I'm finding that I can exercise mildly without PEM and I am getting slightly stronger and less flabby, but it still comes at a price. I'm now tired in the evening when I wasn't prior to adding the exercise, so I have to give up some activities in order to do deliberate exercise. This was not a surprise -- Dr Klimas says that might be necessary, iirc. I think it's worth it at the moment to regain some strength and flexibility, especially core strength.

In case anyone is wondering, exercise is not doing a thing for my ME symptoms. I don't see this as an ME treatment in any way, shape, or form.

 

[JaimeS]

In case anyone is wondering, exercise is not doing a thing for my ME symptoms. I don't see this as an ME treatment in any way, shape, or form.

Me neither! It would just be nice to have a little bit more strength, and to get a bit of the benefits people get from exercise (OTHER people, I guess I might say!) For example, I always feel like my body is running a bit better after I've sweat a bit and increased my HR (a little). I did feel good after the arm and belly exercises.

-J

 

[SOC]

Me neither! It would just be nice to have a little bit more strength, and to get a bit of the benefits people get from exercise (OTHER people, I guess I might say!) For example, I always feel like my body is running a bit better after I've sweat a bit and increased my HR (a little). I did feel good after the arm and belly exercises.

Ooooh, I'm not ready to do the sweating and HR-raising bit yet. I don't have the aerobic capacity for that. I need all the aerobic capacity I have to do my ADLs. I definitely working with the low-level anaerobic metabolism.

I do like that my movement is generally less stiff and more fluid now. I think I'll be satisfied with that for the time being and skip the sweating.

 

[skwag]

Over the course of the next four or five days, my thighs were noticeably cold to the touch, and felt weak and almost burning. (Lactic acid, I suppose, but that's a surprisingly long shelf-life, if so.) It took awhile for me to accept that this had not been a good idea for me - days, in fact - because I kept thinking that the damage to the muscles would let up. Instead, over the next two or three days, the ache, weakness, and cold / lack of blood flow grew more noticeable. The longer I went from the exercise, the less it felt like typical post-exercise muscle soreness, and the more it felt like my legs were dull tree-trunks pinned at each hip that I could scarcely drag along.

Hi JamieS,

I've gone through a couple longer term crashes and recovery. I've always believed the 'recovery' comes first, or at least starts first, at which point I can begin to exercise again. I've also found I don't have much trouble with upper body work. But legs are another story altogether. In particular, quads and calves. The first exercise session doesn't seem too bad while it's happening, but the pain, burn and stiffness builds up over a few days afterwards. And it takes at least a week for it to totally clear. The pain is pretty extreme. Walking difficult. Turning over in bed painful....

The good news is once I would recover from this and felt comfortable ( say 10-14 days after initial exercise ), the next time I tried the same exercise the results were much better. I would still get a little soreness, but I think it was more or less a normal response that normal people might get - minor discomfort only lasting a couple days.

I wouldn't explicitly encourage you to try the leg exercise again, but if you do, let us know how it goes.

 

[olliec]

A few weeks have passed so I wanted to add a few more thoughts for anyone interested.

I've read Drew Baye's ($25) ebook "Project Kratos" which is a detailed high-intensity workout program using bodyweight exercises, most of which can be done without any equipment which is far more suitable for sick people who need to stay home. http://baye.com/store/project-kratos/ Drew was a competitive body builder when he was young, but is now a family man and personal trainer. Like Doug McGuff I like his focus on safety and efficiency.

@SOC One of the things I learnt from Drew's book is that for each exercise he describes in detail how to do around five variants of it ranging from easy to hard. So for example I was finding that to do squats until my leg muscles failed to jelly was taking over 5mins, which contributed towards a weekly exercise duration that was getting far too high. I was getting sicker. Drew says with squats to make it harder by focusing on the lower half of the movement - only ever go half way up, and when at the bottom stay there for a few seconds. It makes the exercise much harder, but much shorter - for me at least that helps. My squats duration is now down to 2mins a week, but it still achieves the goal - to reach momentary muscle failure (burn, panting, weakness) which is what triggers biological adaption. A downside, as I've said before, is these exercises are not fun, it always by definition ends with soreness, panting and weakness. I often end up lying on the floor afterwards unable to move, utterly breathless and wiped out. My saviour appears to be the tiny exercise durations from which I recover. I still can't comprehend how a bit of gentle walking makes me so sick, but this sort of very high intensity exercise does not.

I neglected to mention in earlier posts that there are two other things I do that MAY be contributing to my ability to do this exercise (which currently totals around 15mins a week, spread across Mon/Wed/Fri). First, I've been taking 4mg of Naltrexone daily since 2011. I recently hit a supply problem and ran out, which has resulted in a stark reminder of how much sicker I am without it (esp far, far more malaise and "sickness"). Second, I hadn't realised until I started testing my ketones again recently, that my diet has unintentionally become somewhat keto. I do not deliberately eat a ketogenic diet, but by avoiding all the refined and sugary carbs and focusing on fish/meat/veg/fat I have ended up in the same place.

I've been watching a lot of videos online of experienced personal trainers talking about exercise and fitness and it seems that good fitness is less about cardiopulmonary health than it is about cellular metabolic health. I thought fit people had low resting heart rates because their heart was strong, but no, it appears to have just as much if not more to do with the fact that they have trained the metabolic processes in their cells to be more efficient, so the heart works less hard. My working theory/guess is... If I am fatigued at least partly because my cells are metabolising macronutrients inefficiently, can I train my cells (esp in muscles) to make up for that?

The question then is, what is the most efficient way to train cellular metabolism in my cells and mitochondria in order to achieve this possible improvement in efficiency? The answer (according to studies I have not read) is to use muscles to do work, to take them to momentary muscular failure (ie exercise them until they shake, weaken, and cannot physically do another rep) and to do it at such a (safe) intensity that this happens very quickly to reduce PEM. The muscular failure then causes the body to adapt, increasing efficiency, strength and so on for next time. I gather Doug McGuff works out less than 10mins a week, he is fairly muscular, and has a resting heart rate of 48bpm.

Interestingly McGuff and others are saying some people need 7-14 days between workouts to recover, and if they work out more often they get sick, exhausted, or just get no strength gains. If that is the case for healthy people us lot probably need more. I remind myself that the gains from exercise do not happen during the exercise, they happen in the days afterwards, while we are recovering. I do each exercise once a week, but may extend that to 10 days in future.

So I'm now (after nearly three months of exercise 3x a week) in the surprising position of doing a little too much exercise per week, so am now learning more about how to make the exercises harder (higher intensity, not speed), so I can get the muscles to fail quicker and shorten the duration from 15mins a week down to 10mins a week. I am enduring some PEM, but it is not cumulative. The malaise and "shitty feeling" is worse (I guess inflammation after exercise), but my balance is better, I am less weak and unstable, my energy level is very slightly better, daily activities like crouching down are far easier, I suspect my blood sugar control is better (less waking starving, less getting angry when hungry, less mood swings etc) and it seems my walking range has increased a little. I've also noticed my OI symptoms have improved - eg I now longer get dizzy when standing suddenly.

If anyone is interested there is a Dr McGuff talk here where he goes through his approach, and the science (to an audience of young men):

 

[ryan31337]

Really interesting stuff, thanks for sharing. My experiences are absolute polar opposite, in better times I've been able to slowly (over months/years) build up to significant periods of cardio, swimming 1km with a high intensity for 25 minutes, non-stop. But even with that high capacity if I were to perform a different exercise I would be hit with PEM the day after even the smallest amount - like curling a 5kg dumbell just a few times or doing an unusual exercise engaging different muscles, like digging. To me it seemed that any sort of new muscle building activity was causing a massive, massive problem. The few times I did try to build muscle with bodyweight/freeweights i'd be hit with PEM for days and DOMS for a week after, even if I didn't train to exhaustion.

 

[whodathunkit]

I can't say for sure, but based on what I know and things I've been learning and thinking about lately, I wonder if PEM comes about from an inability to form new mitochondria in response to stress, as well as from poorly functioning existing mitochondria, while endurance/cardio mostly relies on using whatever existing mitochondria you have? Some distinction like this might account for the fact that many people don't get PEM from walking or short bouts of cardio, but a very short bout with weights or HIT will floor the same people. Weight training or HIT all is about building new muscle fibers (mitochondria).

After an initial bout of weight training I would experience something very similar to @JaimeS, with my legs basically going dead for at least a week afterwards. Sitting down or in bed they would feel like rocks, very uncomfy, and I could barely bend them for days. I could get a two month bout of PEM from a single weight training session. But I always managed to be able to walk my dogs adequately enough to meet their elimination needs, even if it was just barely.

@olliec, are you taking any supplements to specifically target mitochondrial dysfunction? I think LCF has helped me A LOT with PEM (I no longer get it), as have probiotics.

 

[SOC]

Some distinction like this might account for the fact that many people don't get PEM from walking or short bouts of cardio, but a very short bout with weights or HIT will floor the same people. Weight training or HIT all is about building new muscle fibers (mitochondria).

IIRC, the exercise physiologists studying ME/CFS (Snell, Stevens, Sol) say it's the cardio that is problematic for us, but limited strength training is possible. The trick is to exercise using the ATP-CP phosphogen system (low-level anaerobic), not the aerobic or anaerobic glycolysis (high-level anaerobic). Theoretically, by training with the ATP-CP phosphogen system we should be able to utilize it better and therefore have more capability before our aerobic metabolism fails us and we PEM.

The exercise physiologist at INIM recommended strength exercise at 2 minutes at a time with 2-5 minutes rest between exercises. I was to start with body weight only and add weight, not duration, if I felt I could do more without PEM.

Currently, I am managing a program on machines with 30 sec of exercise alternating with 30 sec rest (sometimes more if I think I need it) in 14 sets followed by about 10 minutes of stretching -- so about half an hour including rest breaks. I can't do leg exercises on the same day without PEM. If I do leg exercises on alternate days, I can still only do 2 30-sec sets without PEM. So for me, the big muscles in the legs are a problem. My guess is that these muscles use more energy than arm, back, or abdominal muscles and I don't have sufficient energy production to exercise those muscles with resistance. Walking around the grocery store is going to have to do for my legs for now.

See A Realistic Approach to Exercise for CFS Patients from the Workwell Foundation.

 

[olliec]

@ryan31337 What you describe mirrors something McGuff says in Body By Science, that someone can be highly adapted to one exercise and very fit, but when they switch to another form their fitness does not transfer well. He says even a person's vO2max varies a great deal between exercise types which certainly surprised me.

@whodathunkit An obstacle for me at the moment is my lack of clear understanding of cell metabolism. I have watched so many Youtube videos but it still doesn't make clear sense to me. I do know that when I finish exercising my muscles are burning and I pant uncontrollably which I take as clear evidence of lactic acid and aerobic metabolism. I am assuming I am training both anaerobic and aerobic system. My diet is relatively high fat which I suppose may help if my glucose metabolism is inefficient in some way.

@SOC Many thanks for the Workwell link. In many ways what they propose (strength training rather than endurance) is what I am doing, though the 20mins maximum is beyond my capacity. Dr Myhill, Workwell, and McGuff all seem to be saying the same thing in that gaining a bit more strength and muscle mass has benefits. I'm now very doubtful of the benefits of walking etc to improve fitness. McGuff is saying not to waste time doing "cardio" (unless someone enjoys it) and instead to focus on getting stronger to get all the health benefits, including fitness. Btw McGuff and other proponents of HIT strength training often say "cardio does not exist" on the basis it's not possible to only train the heart, it all comes as a package. I have wondered for a while if the many people I've come across who improved through yoga did so because it gently increased their muscle mass, which translated to a little more functionality generally.

Drew Baye suggests aiming for around 6s per rep (3s one way, 3s back), with around ten reps, ie a minute per exercise. If the reps goes much above ten, make it harder. I'm starting to use that to keep the intensity up and the duration way down. It requires focusing my mind on training the muscles hard and reaching failure really very quickly, but brings the benefits with (for me at least) less chance of relapse.

My illness is certainly not deconditioning, but I'm now absolutely convinced that for me at least deconditioning has made me sicker, and led to a significant worsening of symptoms that to some degree are now reversed. I'm still as sick as ever though, just a little stronger and with a little reduction in some satellite symptoms. I'm also aware this may all come to crashing halt at some point if I overdo it or get an infection or whatever, but fingers crossed I can continue.