high blood pressure but paradox reactions to potential treatment, whats going on?

[linusbert]

i have high blood pressure, 150/100 +/- 10 .
its weird, its getting higher on the next day when i took magnesium or potassium.
also vitamin D and b-complex do rather rise then lower it.
i am vitamin D deficient. though taking VD doesnt change it.

i am also diabetic but i am not sure how its related.

there is a diabetes medication empagliflozin i sometimes take, and it lowers the BP a LOT! the only thing which does. it goes down to like 125/85 'ish within a few days of starting it. which is fine for me.
unfortunately it makes my general muscle symptoms worse so i have to stop it again after like 1-2 weeks.
also it makes me completely not tolerate magnesium supplements anymore, even transdermal is resulting in weird cardio problems.
also my blood natrium is getting lower and lower. like borderline low. from good mid range.
it lowers my sugar by like 10-20 mg/dl in blood.
ALSO bp is getting higher after 1-2 weeks again, its like body is adapting to it.

empagliflozin gets rid of sugar and natrium via urin. though i do not urinate more volume and i am also not drinking more. it magically works.

why does this medication work so good for my BP?

any ideas?
and more important, how can i fix this naturally without this medication?

 

[lenora]

Well, you sound like you have a pretty serious problem. At the best of times BP problems are extremely hard to control....and without meds (and I take vitamins, etc. and have for years) chances are not good. My BP is literally all over the place...and I consider myself in a good place. It also takes three BP meds to keep me there.

I have seven stents (with more to come), said high BP, can be prediabetic...comes and goes, and have unmentionably high cholesterol (it's familial). Diet and weight are both excellent. Still, I take the BP problems seriously b/c I've seen too many missing limbs, especially feet, and I know that neuropathy will be an even greater problem. I also have problems that I can't control....this one I can at least make a try.

I'm not trying to make light of your situation, but truly BP is a major problem. Who wants a stroke or heart attack? It just isn't worth the risk. That also doesn't include eye problems which could spoil a lot for anyone.

I wish you well....have a serious talk with your doctor. Yours, Lenora

 

[Crux]

i have high blood pressure, 150/100 +/- 10 .
its weird, its getting higher on the next day when i took magnesium or potassium.
also vitamin D and b-complex do rather rise then lower it.
i am vitamin D deficient. though taking VD doesnt change it.

This happened to me yesterday. I took extra potassium and magnesium and blood pressure went high.
Awoke at 2 am with cramps and numbness in lower legs.
This happens when my calcium is low.
I took extra calcium chelate and felt better in an hour or so.
BP is 120-130/ 81-84 today, but was high this morning.

I can tolerate low dose vitamin D when used transdermally. Calcium is needed for vitamin D tolerance too.

The diabetes med, empagliflozin, is also diuretic, so that may be lowering your BP.
Berberine is reputed to be glucose lowering, Alpha Lipoic Acid too. Ketogenic diet. Low carb

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/...Action,increases urinary excretion of glucose.

 

[LINE]

Some of these issues can be attributed to nitric oxide. NO is a vasodilator which means it opens the vessels up to lessen the pressure. NO also happens to effect blood sugar (lower it). I have read that Metformin for blood sugar control can also influence NO production for the better. In theory Metformin could lower BP due it helping NO production. There seems to be a connection between blood sugar and blood pressure, and I think it is likely due to NO.

 

[Crux]

@LINE ,

Vitamin D, Magnesium, and Potassium increase NO and are protective of it.

Unfortunately, low NO isn't the only cause of hypertension.

 

[lenora]

Out of interest normal BP used to be anything about 140....not higher though. Then about 2 yrs. ago that systolic number was changed to 120 systolic, whereas European countries kept it at 140 systolic.

I've always had incredibly strange BP, almost non-existent when I was young and then it changed when I hit menopause. As long as it isn't extremely high, I simply don't worry about now. I've careful with salt and my diet in general and do take 3 BP meds, which help.

Yes, I do believe that pre-diabetes and high BP and high weight go together. However, the last is not me. The human body has a wide range and I certainly don't worry about it daily (could drive you nuts). Stress causes it to increase....that's a given, but that's normal, I'm sure.

My father and his parents all died very early deaths b/c of heart disease (father was only 40). I'm way past that, so these years have to be considered a plus. I'm not without cardiac problems...I do have 7 stents. Yours, Lenora

 

[linusbert]

Well, you sound like you have a pretty serious problem. At the best of times BP problems are extremely hard to control....and without meds (and I take vitamins, etc. and have for years) chances are not good. My BP is literally all over the place...and I consider myself in a good place. It also takes three BP meds to keep me there.

I have seven stents (with more to come), said high BP, can be prediabetic...comes and goes, and have unmentionably high cholesterol (it's familial). Diet and weight are both excellent. Still, I take the BP problems seriously b/c I've seen too many missing limbs, especially feet, and I know that neuropathy will be an even greater problem. I also have problems that I can't control....this one I can at least make a try.

I'm not trying to make light of your situation, but truly BP is a major problem. Who wants a stroke or heart attack? It just isn't worth the risk. That also doesn't include eye problems which could spoil a lot for anyone.

I wish you well....have a serious talk with your doctor. Yours, Lenora

i have a fundamental problem. when my diabetes went crazy i had it all, high BP, high sugar, bad AZ and they wanted to give me 5 medications + statins + BP lowering medicine.

of all those i took none except piogitazone, and my blood sugar went down to A1C of 5 from 10 within 2 month.
my BP went down 120/80 again, and i am fat.
i even had remission with my main symptoms. i believed i would be permanentely get better, but i didnt. it was going on for 3 month and then started to decline again.

the point, i took no BP medication and non of the phalanx of meds they gave me. it wasnt medical possible to get better this much. my regular doc declared my diabetes for gone.

somehow this one medication fixed/circumvetented exactly in the area were my metabolism was fck'ed up. sadly it didnt fix it completely, but i think this is the axis i need to fix.

i will not take BP or any medication until i absolutely need to. every extra medication will make my actual sickness worse over time. symptomatic treatment is bad. at least so i believe.
i want to find the key to fix it all. as pioglitazone proven possible for me before.
symptomatic treatment is resignation for me.. and if i resign, i do it completely.

 

[linusbert]

This happened to me yesterday. I took extra potassium and magnesium and blood pressure went high.
Awoke at 2 am with cramps and numbness in lower legs.
This happens when my calcium is low.
I took extra calcium chelate and felt better in an hour or so.
BP is 120-130/ 81-84 today, but was high this morning.

I can tolerate low dose vitamin D when used transdermally. Calcium is needed for vitamin D tolerance too.

The diabetes med, empagliflozin, is also diuretic, so that may be lowering your BP.
Berberine is reputed to be glucose lowering, Alpha Lipoic Acid too. Ketogenic diet. Low carb

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK532925/#:~:text=Go to:-,Mechanism of Action,increases urinary excretion of glucose.

that sounds very similiar to mine. i believe it also beeing calcium which is the problem, or another electrolyte.
sadly i do not tolerate calcium supplements at all or anything else in that regard like bor. even V.D is really hard for me. i get muscle pain, and my symptoms overall tend to get worse, its like it saps my energy.
i try to take 5k - 10k IU vitamin D a week + i eat 100g cheese a day, thats like 1500mg calcium. the VD i started 3 weeks ago. i dont know how long i can tolerate.
my blood level is like 4ng/ml. really bad now. i once had it to 89ng/ml, was good for my asthma and allergies.

funny is, i can tolerate 89ng/ml vitamin D in blood , but i cannot tolerate takeing it. so when i took 5k daily back then i got muscle problems. but not from high OHD values. it was the supplementing hurting me.
sadly i dont tolerate sun/uv light at all.
transdermal works, but who knows how much comes through? i feel slight sideffects from transdermal as well so i can confirm it is working.

crux, how do you do transdermal?

yes, empagliflozin is diuretic, but somehow not so much for me. i urinate in a bottle, and the volume is almost the same. also i urinate out glucose without empa. , its not much higher when i take empa.
its a bit more urine, but not much. also thirst isnt increasing. i suspect the natrium loss might be responsible.
also blood glucose is better than, i dont understand why it even works for me. but blood serum lvls are lower.

 

[linusbert]

Some of these issues can be attributed to nitric oxide. NO is a vasodilator which means it opens the vessels up to lessen the pressure. NO also happens to effect blood sugar (lower it). I have read that Metformin for blood sugar control can also influence NO production for the better. In theory Metformin could lower BP due it helping NO production. There seems to be a connection between blood sugar and blood pressure, and I think it is likely due to NO.

very interesting information. i will investigate this (NO).

when i am able to get a erection easily and kinda strong, can i rule out NO issues? ^^
basically the only thing which is working for me exceptionally. not that i could use it. just fun fact.

metformin is bad for me. it worsens my diabetes permantely. berberine had same effect. and d-ribose as well. i somehow suspect its provoking my metabolism on a pathway which is already on edge.

 

[linusbert]

Out of interest normal BP used to be anything about 140....not higher though. Then about 2 yrs. ago that systolic number was changed to 120 systolic, whereas European countries kept it at 140 systolic.

i remember that, in germany they changed this as well. usually i am around 140/90 or below, so i do not care that much. its just with some supplements it gets much higher. right now its already lower than last week because i paused the vitamins. also that empagliflozin does lower it a lot for me.

I've always had incredibly strange BP, almost non-existent when I was young and then it changed when I hit menopause. As long as it isn't extremely high, I simply don't worry about now. I've careful with salt and my diet in general and do take 3 BP meds, which help.

Yes, I do believe that pre-diabetes and high BP and high weight go together.

thats a burden sadly a lot of women suffer. then hormons go wanky the BP follows.

i am not convinced with the link to weight. i was 60kg 6 years ago. i am 130kg now. and my blood pressure went from average 120/80 to like 130/90.
i think damage to endothelium and inflamation is much worse which might come with obesity. but i dont think its the weight per se responsible for the increase.

 

[linusbert]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/...Action,increases urinary excretion of glucose.

i think this is a bad study.
it contradicts other studies i found like this:
https://www.arzneimitteltherapie.de/heftarchiv/2019/03/empagliflozin-add-on-therapie-zu-insulin.html

which basically says dosages from 2,5 to 10 are most effective and 25 doesnt add much if anything at all besides side effects. (i even only take 2,5 , never more than 5mg and it has strong effects for me)
also it works for T1 diabetics.
and ketoacidicosis wont be a risk if not taken more than 5mg.

This is something I've discovered a lot, studies showing that much lower dosages, provide more benefit than the actual recommendations.
same for pioglitazone.
I have a feeling that a lot of studies are made so the pharmaceutical companies can make more profit even at the cost of health.

 

[LINE]

very interesting information. i will investigate this (NO).

when i am able to get a erection easily and kind of strong, can i rule out NO issues? ^^
basically, the only thing which is working for me exceptionally. not that i could use it. just fun fact.

metformin is bad for me. it worsens my diabetes permantely. berberine had same effect. and d-ribose as well. i somehow suspect its provoking my metabolism on a pathway which is already on edge.

Good observation, likely you are correct. @Crux is correct in that NO is not the only pathway that could be affecting your blood pressure.

Sodium levels are low?

 

[linusbert]

Good observation, likely you are correct. @Crux is correct in that NO is not the only pathway that could be affecting your blood pressure.

Sodium levels are low?

somehow everything is low now. yes, sodium/natrium is low now.

but it used to be sodium=upper mid range, calcium=borderline high, potassium=midlow. phosphorus=low or toolow, magnesium=midlow

 

[Crux]

but it used to be sodium=upper mid range, calcium=borderline high, potassium=midlow. phosphorus=low or toolow, magnesium=midlow

This looks strange, when now calcium is low normal as is sodium. Potassium is normal. I wonder what phosphorus is now. Perhaps the empagliflozin caused low sodium.

Have you had parathyroid hormone checked ? PTH

I'm trialing Ubiqinol to stabilize and lower BP. It still fluctuates too much. High in the morning, then good with an afternoon spike. I may be taking another supplement that causes it.

I have a low normal PTH. Vitamin D low. 16. PTH is a vasodilator.

High PTH can raise calcium, but other things can too. High PTH lowers phosphorus.
Other hormones can lower phosphorus, FGF23.

There are transdermal vitamin D's, but I just cut open a gel cap and squirt a small amount on wrist. It's not exact.

Perhaps it's time to see an endocrinologist . ugh

 

[linusbert]

Perhaps it's time to see an endocrinologist . ugh

NEVER ] endo sees my blood and says , its perfect except sugar and high cholesterol. my doctor really said this. they do not care if values are in ranges. they do not see trends. even when potassium and phosphorus were below they didnt care. "i eat too less, i should treat my (non existing) bulimia".
When I had low phosphorus it normalized when I took high dosages of vitamin D - which i cannot do anymore like that.

There are transdermal vitamin D's, but I just cut open a gel cap and squirt a small amount on wrist. It's not exact.

can u tell me what gel you are using?
i use my regular MCT vitamin D oil.

Have you had parathyroid hormone checked ? PTH

I'm trialing Ubiqinol to stabilize and lower BP. It still fluctuates too much. High in the morning, then good with an afternoon spike. I may be taking another supplement that causes it.

the last time I checked PTH Wass like five or six years ago, nevertheless but I cannot tell what it is right now.

I have a feeling that my BP fluctuations somehow are related to food allergies and histamine.
but I cannot change much it really sucks.

This looks strange, when now calcium is low normal as is sodium. Potassium is normal. I wonder what phosphorus is now. Perhaps the empagliflozin caused low sodium.

Yes indeed. I cannot make any sense of this, it's like everything is just going down.
i indeed made that association with empa., sodium going down when i took it and recovered when i got off of it again.
but i didnt take empa. for over half a year and this time it does not recover. and i eat unwillingly very salty, i for sure have too much salt in my food.

 

[Crux]

When I had low phosphorus it normalized when I took high dosages of vitamin D - which i cannot do anymore like that.

I have negative effects from too much phosphorus, which vitamin D increases.
The soft gel cap is gelatin that contains vitamin and olive oil, glycerine. 400 iu. NOW foods. nbd.
Your type would be fine to rub into skin. Some people react to MCT oil.

I have a feeling that my BP fluctuations somehow are related to food allergies and histamine.
but I cannot change much it really sucks.

I take 2.5 mg. of copper glycinate for histamine metabolism. It works really well unless I take too much zinc.
Too much sulfur will cause a reaction.

Histamine is generally a vasodilator.

Cheese is high in calcium, but also phosphorus. Phosphorus is high in proteins, but mostly it's added to processed foods, excessively. Too much Phosphorus can damage organs

I'm not recommending a supplement, but I take Source Naturals, calcium chelate tablets.

Since your test results aren't that high, doctors won't do anything. I don't agree, shrug. The tests aren't specific.
There could be liver, kidney, heart trouble. There could be infections, even cancer.

I do agree that blood glucose needs to be lowered. It can trash organs.

I'm just a patient who's had some mediocre doctors.

Has low carb helped you ? Alpha Lipoic Acid ?

 

[lenora]

I have tried so many "cures" over the years. I started off with vitamins, herbs, etc., before going to meds.

As we age certain things just can't be controlled, it's genetic and we can't do much about them. I was on CoQ-10 for years....even more important was the fact that my husband was. Once you reach either 45-50 you have to take Ubiquinol (same thing, but form is changed) so that the body can access it.

When my husband was 50, he suffered two cardiac arrests in one day. He was not expected to survive and it was a nightmare for about a week. Thank goodness both of our daughters were in town (they were travelling, but their flights had individually been cancelled). As it turns out, with considerable effort I tracked down the reason to being from malathion poisoning....a nerve gas.

That doesn't matter....he's fine, his mind wasn't affected and the new cardiologist believed very much in Ubiquinol and felt that was the only reason he survived what occurred.

We're both now a great deal older...he's turning 78 and I'm 75. I have extremely high BP (went from very low to very high...menopause), high familial cholesterol and heart problems (7 stents; more expected). These are just a few of my later aged problems and my husband has been wonderful.

The newest tests used by those coming out medical school aren't the old fashioned stress tests, but newer chemical ones that pick up on everything. We're outliving all of our doctors, or they're retiring or sadly, dying. It's worse starting again....trust me. The patient/doctor relationship is lost and you don't realize until later exactly what it meant. So, if possible, form one.

Point being: As we age meds are necessary. Vitamins, etc., don't help, although I still take many and believe they reinforce an ill body. My old (now deceased) neurologist learned about natural therapies and used them in his practice. Will I find someone like him again....not very likely. So some doctors are trying but they still remain few and far between. A lot of doctors die at young ages, it's not an easy profession and here they're under more pressure to perform faster all of the time. Insurance dictates it.

So please don't rely on just a very good energy poducer to the cells (I believe) like Ubiquinol....listen to your doctor and take your problems seriously. Start with the lowest dose of a drug and work up from there. Frequent blood tests and please watch your diet. We do, it's true, but it doesn't seem to help much in the cholesterol dept., or BP for that matter....although we have cut way down on salt. You do need some iodine, so don't make it too low. I'm also borderline diabetic.....even though my weight has alway been under good control.

I hope your genes and lifestyle are good....you'll be saved from a lot of problems. Yes, ALA is also good. Yours, Lenora

 

[linusbert]

I have negative effects from too much phosphorus, which vitamin D increases.
The soft gel cap is gelatin that contains vitamin and olive oil, glycerine. 400 iu. NOW foods. nbd.
Your type would be fine to rub into skin. Some people react to MCT oil.



I take 2.5 mg. of copper glycinate for histamine metabolism. It works really well unless I take too much zinc.
Too much sulfur will cause a reaction.

Histamine is generally a vasodilator.

Cheese is high in calcium, but also phosphorus. Phosphorus is high in proteins, but mostly it's added to processed foods, excessively. Too much Phosphorus can damage organs

I'm not recommending a supplement, but I take Source Naturals, calcium chelate tablets.

Since your test results aren't that high, doctors won't do anything. I don't agree, shrug. The tests aren't specific.
There could be liver, kidney, heart trouble. There could be infections, even cancer.

I do agree that blood glucose needs to be lowered. It can trash organs.

I'm just a patient who's had some mediocre doctors.

Has low carb helped you ? Alpha Lipoic Acid ?

no, low carb triggered my crash. i went on a healthy diet, everything organic, grass fed, self cooked, like 60% fats, at least 15% protein and cut out all sugar (not carbs though). i got over a year weaker and weaker until i crashed.
now i need to eat every 2 hours, either bad carbohydrates or proteins. everything with high insulin index works.
i even trink pure glucose/dextrose.
if i dont, things get bad...
though i have a bilanced diet, every cal is weight in, i am at least 500cal in deficit.

i cannot change anything of the diet, i could eat more protein, but my stomach is not able to handle it.
for me its like - live today, die another day ...

my fat metabolism really doesnt work that good. doctors also believed i have a metabolic myopathy, something with fatty acid disorder. its just that all tests for this came out negative.
right now i am diagnosed a unknown progressive myopathy.



i have copper deficiency, but i do not tolerate copper sadly

 

[Crux]

I have some colloidal copper put into nasal spray bottle. When I have a reaction to something, I spray into sinuses, even eyes . It helps a lot.

Are you not getting enough vitamin C ? It and B6 are needed for histamine metabolism.

That's a lot of phosphorus.

I'm sure you know that high protein can raise glucose. I was surprised when mine went up from trying carnivore.

Vitamin K is impressive. Even K1 may deter calcifications.

My bp looked good today, then I applied vitamin d. Up it went within an hour. coincidence I doubt

Do you ever have kidney pain , or other ?

 

[linusbert]

I have some colloidal copper put into nasal spray bottle. When I have a reaction to something, I spray into sinuses, even eyes . It helps a lot.

i might try this!

Are you not getting enough vitamin C ? It and B6 are needed for histamine metabolism.

sadly not. i am in nursing home, have not much choice. they do not even have kiwis. even my bananas were a fight to get.
cant even eat the vegetable and salads here, they put sugar into EVERYTHING. sauerkrat tastes more like marmelade... its disgusting.

That's a lot of phosphorus.
I'm sure you know that high protein can raise glucose. I was surprised when mine went up from trying carnivore.
Vitamin K is impressive. Even K1 may deter calcifications.

also a lot calcium. i think its all the cheese. as its "good" cheese like gouda/emmentaler (not that bad artificial cheese with the bad phosphor) i believe its all in one package so my body could handle it - hopefully. so vitamin K comes along hopefully keeping those pipes clean.
some proteins are worse than glucose. whey isolate kicks raw glucose in the butt in regards of glyx.

Do you ever have kidney pain , or other ?

gladly so far i have nt much pain at all. only when mucless are cramping and getting hard... or sometimes pretty stiff. but mostly its fine.
my doc years ago found mini kidney stones... not stones , more like sand - doc found out in ultra sonic. sometimes it was like a little needle pin in the penis. but rarely. i didnt have this in a long time.
but since then my blood calcium went from high to low. also my feet which were pretty rough are now smooth like baby feet. but my nails look poor, probably because of deficiency. its not champignon.

now after thinking a bit, every few month i get a shooting pain in the hip when stepping on the foot, i am sure its the joint. but it goes away after a few days and also is only on some random steps. not every step.