HELP! Insomnia remedy (Seriphos) causing severe air hunger?

[Dreambirdie]

Okay, this is weird. I found something that has helped me sleep. In fact, I slept GREAT for about 2 weeks. BUT NOW... I am waking up with air hunger symptoms, repeatedly gasping for air. Arrrrgggggh!

Here's what I have been taking. The new addition is the Seriphos.
Had anyone else had gasping for air from Seriphos????

400 mg of Mg
2500 mg of L-tryptophan (broken up in 2 doses--1000 before bed and 1500 at 5 am)
2 capsules of seriphos (now called enerphos)

 

[maddietod]

Have you ever had a sleep study? It's possible that the medication is allowing you to sleep deeply, so you aren't waking like you need to from apnea.

 

[Dreambirdie]

Hi MAdie--I would not be able to do a sleep study, because of my MCS. I have to sleep at home in my own environment. If I get exposed to any toxins at all (like in laundry soap, shampoo, cleaning products), my sleep is kaput.

I don't think I have sleep apnea, but maybe when I sleep deeply it slows my respiration so much that I actually stop breathing for a while and wake up gasping for air.

 

[taniaaust1]

Isnt there a way that some people have sleep studies done at home?

 

[Dreambirdie]

For now I am just going to stop the Seriphos.
Why do a sleep study if I already have a good idea what the problem might be.

Arrrgggh, it really helps sleep though. So frustrating that I have this damn side effcet.

 

[dannybex]

Of course I'm not a doctor, so this is just a guess, but if the Seriphos helped, then it may suggest that your cortisol is perhaps too high at night. Maybe there are other things that would help lower or balance cortisol in place of the Seriphos...

Or I wonder...if you might try taking one capsule...and see how that goes?

p.s. I read in a couple different places that Seriphos is only supposed to be used for 2 months maximum, but can't recall why or where I read that......

 

[dannybex]

p.s.p.s. Inositol has been helping me lately...comes in powder or caps...I take it about 1/2 hour before bed and can hardly read more than a page or two of my usual bedtime book, before I just have to shut my eyes.

 

[heapsreal]

SOmetimes those with severe adrenal fatigue/adrenal dysfunction(low dhea and or cortisol/morning cortisol) can have strange or opposite reactions to treatments that affect these hormones. I know i had weird reactions to siberian ginseng and other herbs that i hadnt had before. I never used the phosphatidylserine though when like this, its a main ingredient in seriphos, but even with my adrenal hormones within normal range the first few mornings after using PS i woke up groggy etc but with time my body seems to have adjusted. I think one has to slowly treat adrenal hormone defiencies with very low doses and once your levels are within normal ranges, many of these strange/paradoxical reactions dont seem to occurr as much??

 

[Sushi]

Isnt there a way that some people have sleep studies done at home?

Not in the U.S. A lot of equipment involved.

Sushi

 

[perchance dreamer]

You can have a limited sleep study done at home. I believe a home study tests for apnea and oxygen saturation only.

 

[Dreambirdie]

Hi Dan---My cortisol is actually chronically low, at ALL points of the day. But according to my ND who prescribed it for me, seriphos does not lower cortisol, but rather works to balance the HPA axis and to prevent your body from over-reactiing to stress--as stress puts out TOO MUCH cortisol and drains the adrenals more.

Perhaps I was getting too much seriphos by taking 2 or 3 tablets each night for the past 2 weeks...? or maybe it's all that phosphorous and calcium in the capsules... throwing off my electrolyte balance?

Heapsreal---I do fine with phosphatidyl serine and can take multi tablets without a bad reaction, but it doesn't help me sleep the way that seriphos (which is phosphorilated serine) does.

I didn't take the Seriphos last night, so I had no shortness of breath... but I also did not sleep very well... again as usual. It's a bear to figure all this out.

PS Dan--Inositol did not do a thing for me.

 

[Ema]

Heapsreal---I do fine with phosphatidyl serine and can take multi tablets without a bad reaction, but it doesn't help me sleep the way that seriphos (which is phosphorilated serine) does.

"Phosphatidyl serine is a phospholipid composed of one glycerol, two fatty acid, and one phosphorylated serine molecules. When one consumes phosphatidyl serine, the digestive process cleaves the glycerol and fatty acids from the phosphorylated serine before it is absorbed. When the body needs phosphatidyl serine, it adds fatty acids and glycerol to the phosphorylated serine. Fatty acids and glycerol are available in abundance from body fat and from dietary sources. The rate-limiting step in the body's production of phosphatidyl serine is the phosphorylation of serine. By consuming phosphorylated serine, the body is stimulated to manufacture phosphatidyl serine. Supplementing preformed phosphatidyl serine offers no advantage, as it is broken down to its component parts and reassembled in the body using tissue-specific fatty acids. A reason not to use it is that the unsaturated fatty acids it contains are likely to be rancid. What's more, phosphorylated serine works more quickly and permanently. One final reason to opt for phosphorylated serine is that it is much cheaper. Phosphatidyl serine is currently more popular but it is an inferior supplement. "

www.drdebe.com/serine.htm

It's odd that one would help you sleep while the other does not considering that they are essentially the same thing. However, many things work paradoxically in our population as heaps pointed out.

Low thyroid can also cause air hunger. It's a very common symptom. Maybe the Seriphos is actually increasing your cortisol levels at night which is increasing your thyroid clearance and causing you to go hypo.

I've read that phosphatidyl serine can resensitize the hypothalamus which is in line with what your NP is saying. However, I've also read that it will lower cortisol. I've always wanted to try it but have been nervous given my own lack of cortisol production.

Ema

 

[Lotus97]

Rich removed phosphatidyl serine complex from his methylation protocol because it lowers cortisol and he was concerned many of the people here had low cortisol.

 

[Lotus97]

Another possibility is that if Seriphos is more effective than regular PS then it could cause a sharper drop in cortisol resulting in a spike of norepinephrine. Also, Seriphos and PS are methyl donors and stimulate the BHMT pathway. This could lead to overmethylation. Also, when the BHMT pathway is stimulated it can convert dopamine into norepinephrine. TMG, choline, betaine HCL, and SAMe also stimulate the BHMT pathway.

 

[Star-Anise]

Lotus97
Thanks so much! This thread was an awesome find after a night of frenzied googling!!!!!!!
I thought something fishy was up re: PS, as my long-time night cortisol blocker has been giving me troubles of late, and today just put me **over the edge,*** in hyper-stimulation, overmethylated never, neverland.
I didn't realize that PS was a methyl donor, although I knew about the BHMT stimulation.
The conversion from dopamine -> epinephrine makes so much sense given my situation.
Unfortunately I suspect that I have aluminum toxicity and Yasko references this with respect to impaired acetylcholine production. I think I have being relying on this stimulation of BHMT to meet my mental acuity needs through the increased adrenaline hormones (I'm assuming some kind of relationship between acetylcholine and epinephrine), but now with my total intolerance to methyl donors since doing the ammonia protocol (which I did another round of just recently & that explains my increased intolerance to PS). Unfortunately it's not as simple as just eliminating the PS for me, because as I found out earlier today after not taking any the night before, I'm a bit of a zombie without it! I suspect I do need some methyl donors, but still impatiently waiting for 23andme results - it's at the 2nd last stage now... so I was trying to hold off to get some more info to come up with a more informed gameplan, instead of the deductive guesswork I have been using, lol! More experimentation here we come! Wish me luck!
As always, in much appreciation for the support on this forum,
S

 

[reino35]

My CFS is most likely driven by viral issues. Research has shown high cytokine and interleukin levels in people with high viral titers. These cytokines and interleukins are believed to affect the HPA Axis (especially the hypothalamus) which plays a major role in endocrine and immune function which in turn affects sleep. I've tried everything (and I mean everything...even Xyrem) and nothing works. If your CFS is virally driven like mine I hate to say it but I don't know that there is anything that will really help. The Virus has to be eliminated....and as you know there is nothing that has been shown to vipe out EBV or HHV6 to this point. Valcyte could be the answer or wait for CMX 001 to get approved for CMV and find a doctor to prescribe it off label in a year or so......Take Care

 

[heapsreal]

My CFS is most likely driven by viral issues. Research has shown high cytokine and interleukin levels in people with high viral titers. These cytokines and interleukins are believed to affect the HPA Axis (especially the hypothalamus) which plays a major role in endocrine and immune function which in turn affects sleep. I've tried everything (and I mean everything...even Xyrem) and nothing works. If your CFS is virally driven like mine I hate to say it but I don't know that there is anything that will really help. The Virus has to be eliminated....and as you know there is nothing that has been shown to vipe out EBV or HHV6 to this point. Valcyte could be the answer or wait for CMX 001 to get approved for CMV and find a doctor to prescribe it off label in a year or so......Take Care

Partially agree. I think there are things that can help us sleep but our hpa axis adjusts or some other function involved in sleep. I dont think its a med tolerance although it to can happen. I think we need to alternate several substances to get good sleep and take 2-3 at a time, this also help reduce drug tolerance too. Treating the infectious cause is definately going to help and this has helped me but i think there maybe something permanently broken with our sleep.

Did the xyrem help sleep at all?
I think sometimes because its so expensive that its reguarded as the top shelf of sleep meds. The funny thing is that 20 plus yrs ago it was sold as a bodybuilding supplement that supposedly increase growth hormone through improving sleep and it cost like $20 for a bottle of tablets. Apparently its easy to make so i dont understand why the price is so high.

 

[perchance dreamer]

I've taken Xyrem for years. It works really well, but I do have to take other supplements to boost it, glycine and theanine, among others. Many people don't require other supplements with it.

I've stopped it before, and the great thing is that after a couple of sleepless nights, I go back to the kind of sleep I had before Xyrem. I don't find it causes dependence at all. Klonopin and Lunesta, on the other hand, were hell for me to come off.

I think Jazz is still the company who owns the patent, and they have a monopoly until 2020. My last shipment showed that over $6000 was charged to insurance for one month's supply.

I'm not clear on whether insurance actually pays Jazz that much just because it's billed. I suspect not. My copay is $35 monthly.

My sleep doctor told me that if someone doesn't have health insurance that the Xyrem pharmacy charges those patients around $1000 a month, still obscenely high.

I consider this the ugly side of capitalism. I think it's ridiculous that this one company has a monopoly and for so long.

 

[Mij]

My CFS is most likely driven by viral issues. Research has shown high cytokine and interleukin levels in people with high viral titers. These cytokines and interleukins are believed to affect the HPA Axis (especially the hypothalamus) which plays a major role in endocrine and immune function which in turn affects sleep. I've tried everything (and I mean everything...even Xyrem) and nothing works. If your CFS is virally driven like mine I hate to say it but I don't know that there is anything that will really help. The Virus has to be eliminated....and as you know there is nothing that has been shown to vipe out EBV or HHV6 to this point. Valcyte could be the answer or wait for CMX 001 to get approved for CMV and find a doctor to prescribe it off label in a year or so......Take Care

My sleep is ok for the most part but I have gone through terrible insomnia in the past, my insomnia is virally or hormonal(in the last 3yrs) driven and trazodone works well for me in small dose.

It's really a matter of getting the right combo that works for you and sometimes that can be challenging, especially when a lot of us are sensitive to meds.

 

[Cheyle Chen]

Another possibility is that if Seriphos is more effective than regular PS then it could cause a sharper drop in cortisol resulting in a spike of norepinephrine. Also, Seriphos and PS are methyl donors and stimulate the BHMT pathway. This could lead to overmethylation. Also, when the BHMT pathway is stimulated it can convert dopamine into norepinephrine. TMG, choline, betaine HCL, and SAMe also stimulate the BHMT pathway.

Hi Lotus,

do you know what sleep supplements are not methyl donors? I’m taking niacin at the moment because I believe I’m over Methylated from overdosing on my methylated b-Vitamins. I’m on Zopiclone for 2 months now, trying to reduce it so I can transition to medical cannabis for sleep. I have horrendous insomnia for 8 months now (average 0-30 mins or 90 mins sleep without taking Zopiclone).