• Welcome to Phoenix Rising!

    Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of and finding treatments for complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia (FM), long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.

    To register, simply click the Register button at the top right.

Heart preload failure after excess sugar

gregh286

Senior Member
Messages
956
Location
Londonderry, Northern Ireland.
Hi
Anyone like to hazard a guess of this mechanism.
Lasted for 8 hours after 2 large portions of dessert. Was.fine before it
10 min after eating the heart does a crazy acceleration then slips to this preload issue.

Heart was failing to preload so I got the skipped beats for ages. Very unwelcome and a touch hairy.
Can't see it being blood volume drop as its not makes sense that volume would drop like that instantly.

So allergic reaction making vessels more leaky?
Maybe gut bacteria making huge amount of unwanted lactate from the sugar substrate ?
Excess vasodilation from insulin release?

Anyone had it or deals with it any insight
Ta
 

Judee

Psalm 46:1-3
Messages
4,291
Location
Great Lakes
Dr Systrom talks about this in one of his YouTube videos... not as related to sugar... just that all the ME patients he has tested have preload failure. I think he said it was left preload failure.

Edit: I'm having some success bringing my heart rate down with diy Alka Seltzer Gold. A lot of environmental doctors prescribe it for allergic reactions but it has to be the Gold version. There are diy versions online.

I just make a small amount and then take a sip of that 3-4 or so times a day especially when my heart rate is higher than I want it to be.
 
Last edited:

gregh286

Senior Member
Messages
956
Location
Londonderry, Northern Ireland.
Dr Systrom talks about this in one of his YouTube videos... not as related to sugar... just that all the ME patients he has tested have preload failure. I think he said it was left preload failure.

Edit: I'm having some success bringing my heart rate down with diy Alka Seltzer Gold. A lot of environmental doctors prescribe it for allergic reactions but it has to be the Gold version. There are diy versions online.

I just make a small amount and then take a sip 3-4 or so times a day.

Thanks judee.
I only get it on occasions so it's not a permanent symptom or.else totally unnoticeable the rest of the time. So there is cause and reaction in this way.
My heart rate is a steady 50 always.
 

linusbert

Senior Member
Messages
926
how does this selzer gold work? it looks like a form of electrolyte mix?

i have taking since a rough 1-2 weeks sodium ascorbate. i have the feeling my blood pressure is lower and heart rate also.
though my resting HR is 88.
i wonder that the sodium content doesnt increase blood pressure , nor do i get bloating like i would get with pure sodium. maybe its to less, i just take 1-2g / day so its like 100-200mg sodium.

i also got those extra beats i guess. didnt know it was a preload thing. actually i didnt hear about preload issues until i read this thread.
i get those a lot after i took vitamin D, especially a high dose for a few days.
i need to invite my heart rate specialist, what do you think @vision blue ?
 

gregh286

Senior Member
Messages
956
Location
Londonderry, Northern Ireland.
into the tissues.
The second general possibility is that blood travels through the peripheral capillary system normally but cellular oxygen uptake and/or utilization by the mitochondria is deficient. To date, these mechanisms have not been sufficiently evaluated in ME/CFS patients to determine whether they are active in many, if not all, ME/CFS patients. The figure below shows the mitochondria (blue) with a highlighted internal elastic

I could put my life on that :)
 

Judee

Psalm 46:1-3
Messages
4,291
Location
Great Lakes
how does this selzer gold work? it looks like a form of electrolyte mix?

Yes, it is an electrolyte in the bicarbonate form. I don't want to take the thread off topic too much so I'm going to PM you with the info.

Heart was failing to preload so I got the skipped beats for ages.

I did want to ask how you knew it was preload failure? Do you have a Kardia or similar that @vision blue and @linusbert talked about in this thread? https://forums.phoenixrising.me/thr...tracker-heart-rate-anyone.89717/#post-2429787

I just wondered if there is a way to tell that this is happening at home w/o having to going somewhere and having an expensive, invasive CPET.
 
Last edited:

linusbert

Senior Member
Messages
926
Heart preload well documented in cfs. Actually most likely cause for air hunger .....etc.

But from the extract by adding saline and water no significant change to patients.
Immune autonomic dysfunction.

https://endmecfs.mgh.harvard.edu/heartpreload/

thanks! this is very interesting as i have air hunger episodes recently.
btw, i get those 1+ day later after i did take potassium / magnesium.

so this could be indeed be some kind of electrolyte imbalance.

also my QTc is above 450ms , this also indicates electrolyte imbalance.
 

gregh286

Senior Member
Messages
956
Location
Londonderry, Northern Ireland.
Yes air hunger and preload seems to be tied at hip.
Totally can be electrolyte.
Or immune error.
Or leaking vasculature system (like low grade anaphylaxis) which I mentioned before. (Instead of massive degranulisation and instant vessel opening ours is more of a Chronic.....slow release version )
 

vision blue

Senior Member
Messages
1,865
@linusbert visionblue is thinking

@gregh286 what makes you think ia preload failure (reduced blood return to heart)!causes ectopic beats? And Are you getting pvcs or pacs?? Have not read that but do t know uch on poir return of blood to heart
By the way, my heart does about 10’pvc a minute following hemp milk. (Potassium and mint- think girl scout thin mints) do weird things to heart too) I also would love to know the mechanism.

@Judee that woukd be awesome if there was a home simple proxy for that invasive test. Will think about it. Certainly either way, taking home measurements comparing having symptoms to not having symptoms may add useful data. Or at least i think so. Televisitcwith a doc (see below) did have a good point that the ekg was a tiny littke window into a very complex mechsnism with loads of interacting parts and that was a good tool in the 40s when there was nothing else. Insew the point but still think careful measurement and thought will replace many invasive tests. There Arnel automated algorithms that could check the EKG for all sorts of things that are even hard for an individual to see including hyper trophy and predictors of major cardiac events or stroke in the next six months and other kinds after years

Does any of the preload failure explain delayed exhaustion PEM heart affecte? Its not obvious to me it would
https://endmecfs.mgh.harvard.edu/heartpreload/
Its Not a well written description tho so hard to tell much of anything from it Alit of of times someone can keep excercising but then pays terrible price later, to heart as well as other things. Im not clear on how preload failure does this but dont know much ablut it so cant be sure yet

Ive been wondering if some of the changes ive been getting are due to exaggerated responses of dysautonomia. So getting big rebounds hours after an already exaggerated initial response. Lije initial too much casodilation followed hours later by too much vasocobstriction rebound

But woukd like to read more about that shift from arterial to venous blood supplyy

Do you know anything about the supposed rightward shift to QRS axis yktgat js supposed to excercise? Wondering if im gettibg a rebound leftward shift hours after excercise

Too tired to expkain wht any of this may be relevant

On monday after an hour long televisit with a smart doc, a third of ehich ibspent on heart symptons, where i thought we were on the sane page, he concluded he thinks my problem is deconditiining. Sigh.
 

vision blue

Senior Member
Messages
1,865
Pa in case that comment too long, curious to know why you attribute the extra beats /skipped beats to a preload, blond return issue.
 

Judee

Psalm 46:1-3
Messages
4,291
Location
Great Lakes
Do you know anything about the supposed rightward shift to QRS axis yktgat js supposed to excercise? Wondering if im gettibg a rebound leftward shift hours after excercise

No I don't. I'm sorry.

On monday after an hour long televisit with a smart doc, a third of ehich ibspent on heart symptons, where i thought we were on the sane page, he concluded he thinks my problem is deconditiining. Sigh.

Yikes.
 

gregh286

Senior Member
Messages
956
Location
Londonderry, Northern Ireland.
@gregh286 what makes you think ia preload failure (reduced blood return to heart)!causes ectopic beats? And Are you getting pvcs or pacs?? Have not read that but do t know uch on poir return of blood to heart
By the way, my heart does about 10’pvc a minute following hemp milk. (Potassium and mint- think girl scout thin mints) do weird things to heart too) I also would love to know the mechanism.

That's what it feels like but could be wrong. For eg. If I cross my legs over it gets worse as the venous flow gets more disrupted due to compression of the leg arteries. So more me this suggests the chamber is not full before pumping.
I could be wrong...it' could be pvcs
 

vision blue

Senior Member
Messages
1,865
Intersting on position change. I think i misunderstood what you said in one of your posts - i thought you said you had PVCs and you thought the cause was preload failure

Maybe then same question as @Judee - do you have a kardia or other monitor that you used whwn you had the symptoms?
 

vision blue

Senior Member
Messages
1,865
@gregh286 Also, is a preload failure in any way related to ventricles not being able to squeeze out blood as it gets ready for next beat (depolarization)?

Waiting to see if you collected any heart data after the sugar since seems there can be so many hypotheses
 

gregh286

Senior Member
Messages
956
Location
Londonderry, Northern Ireland.
@gregh286 Also, is a preload failure in any way related to ventricles not being able to squeeze out blood as it gets ready for next beat (depolarization)?

Waiting to see if you collected any heart data after the sugar since seems there can be so many hypotheses

Hi
I won't have any data.becusse I'm so scared to touch sugar now so it's not likely to happen much.
It doesn't happen with carbs so it's not a blood glucose issue....or it doesn't happen with fructose.
I can eat a full pineapple maybe 80g of sugar or even 2.of.them. heart rate stay at 50.
Take 100g of.basmati rice which converts maybe to 70g of glucose and nothing unusual happens.

But take refined sugar in any form over about say 100g eaten very quickly triggers this reaction and gives pots instantly....missing beats.....racing heart....adrenaline surges....aerobic failure.....legs heavy.....etc....metabolic crisis.

It's actually quite scary as well.

If I had to put money on what it was I would say its like early stomach dump syndrome and sugar just hits small colon and converts instantly to lactate or something to that effect.

I could buy a lactate meter and test blood pre and post.
 

vision blue

Senior Member
Messages
1,865
was just trying to see if electrical so hoping you had evidence it was skipped beats. So was thinking something like something in the desert which sounds like you narrowed it to glucose its excitatory and makes heart hyperexcitable leading to extopic beats. Sounds lije even more general- since you said a full blown sympathetic norepinephrine activation. Yes i know those are scary! I actually dis have something similar and had to stop eatingbany sugar at dinner. For me woukd also cause hot fladh but in me hot flash goes along with sympathetic activation (and therres evidence in kiterature of the hot flash SND activation)

I dont know mechanism either but see no reason to invoke preload failure but perhaps ive molissed something and dont know enough on the topic

One reason im interested in how many extopic beats you had abd if pvc or pac is because of the reaction i get to hemp. But sounds like your extopic bests are secondary to SNS activation now that youve clarified

We know the autonomic nervous system involved in glucose metabolism- doesnt it also raise heart rate? Anyway hopefully wont happen again but if does recording heart rate abd e tooic beats may be useful. Tgeres a bunch of stiludied on sympathetic nervoud system and glucose but most gesred towards diabetes so youd need to slog thru alot of irrelevent stuff before finding the gems

Anything can set us off If you also have dysautonomia