Has Chia helped anyone we know?

[Andrew]

Has Chia ever helped a current for former member of this forum, or anyone else you personally know? I'm not looking for what Chia says his success is, I'm looking for other sources.

 

[Belbyr]

I did his protocol, no luck. I was a patient of Dr Klimas who sent off my samples to Dr Chia to see what he said. He said strong positive and we started the supplement he suggests. 4 months later, still a sick dog

 

[Hip]

Dr John Chia's main enterovirus treatment is oxymatrine, and this PR forum poll found that 13% experienced a major improvement via oxymatrine, and another 20% experienced a minor improvement on oxymatrine.

"Major improvement" and "minor improvement" are precisely defined in the poll.

Chia also uses Epivir, tenofovir, LDN, and others, which each have their own success rate.

 

[used_to_race]

Has Chia ever helped a current for former member of this forum, or anyone else you personally know? I'm not looking for what Chia says his success is, I'm looking for other sources.

I can recall a few specific users on here saying they had a noticeable improvement, at least temporarily, with Dr. Chia's treatment. There was one lady whose child was being treated by Dr. Chia and she said he had improved as well. Overall maybe 3 or 4 users on this board who specifically posted about it. A much larger number has posted here saying they tried Oxymatrine or Equilibrant and nothing happened. I personally felt worse when taking even small doses of it, and some of my bloodwork got worse as well (AST and ALT were elevated on Equilibrant).

Dr John Chia's main enterovirus treatment is oxymatrine, and this PR forum poll found that 13% experienced a major improvement via oxymatrine, and another 20% experienced a minor improvement on oxymatrine.

The thing is, this isn't the same as a scientific study where there are a variety of qualitative and quantitative endpoints, and patients are followed up with over a set period of time. Someone may be experiencing a temporary, unrelated upswing in their health and find the poll at the right time.

As someone who lives in the LA area and has talked to other patients of Dr. Chia here, I personally am quite skeptical of his reported success rates and was left feeling unsatisfied with the rigor of his claims during my own visits with him. I have been reprimanded on this board before for saying disparaging things about Dr. Chia, but that's just my opinion. If your insurance covers his care, the additional expense of Equilibrant is pretty small. But I personally don't think it will ever be proven to work in any kind of study.

@Andrew if you want to know the names of doctors in LA that I have found to be helpful, please send me a PM.

 

[Hip]

I personally felt worse when taking even small doses of it

Feeling worse is thought to be a sign that oxymatrine is working. If oxymatrine is boosting the immune response against infection, then it's not surprising that symptoms increase.

Interferon is the same: you feel worse on a course of interferon as it fights the infection, but afterwards many severe bedbound enterovirus ME/CFS patients are able to go back to work (unfortunately relapse occurs several months to a year later).

Someone may be experiencing a temporary, unrelated upswing in their health and find the poll at the right time.

I don't think that would generally be relevant, as patients may have benefited from a given treatment years before, and then they just reported it when they saw the poll.

But compared to Dr Chia's results, where he reports around 30% of people will make major improvements on oxymatrine, this poll only found 13%.

 

[used_to_race]

Feeling worse is thought to be a sign that oxymatrine is working. If oxymatrine is boosting the immune response against infection, then it's not surprising that symptoms increase.

This always gets brought up in these discussions but there are underlying assumptions that haven't been validated.

Interferon is the same: you feel worse on a course of interferon as it fights the infection, but afterwards many severe bedbound enterovirus ME/CFS patients are able to go back to work (unfortunately relapse occurs several months to a year later).

This is just according to Dr. Chia's own anecdotes, right? How many people have actually been treated for ME/CFS using interferon and how many of those cases have been documented in the literature?

But compared to Dr Chia's results, where he reports around 30% of people will make major improvements on oxymatrine, this poll only found 13%.

Again, the 30% figure is only according to Dr. Chia himself as far as I know, and has never been published. He's been giving Equilibrant and Oxymatrine to his patients for 15+ years and no strong evidence has come out to support its efficacy. Yet Chia himself has so many patients that there's a 6-12 month wait to even get an appointment with him. Interpret that the way you will. I know that it doesn't fill me with confidence personally.

 

[Hip]

This always gets brought up in these discussions but there are underlying assumptions that haven't been validated.

I am not sure what sort of validation you are looking for. Dr Chia has simply observed many ME/CFS patients feel worse on oxymatrine before they get better:

Side Effects Increase in symptoms, such as headache, myalgia, arthralgia, stomach complaints or bladder discomfort, can be seen in over 50% of the patients, lasting from a few days to few weeks, but could be relatively mild if the dose is increased slowly.

Source: here

If someone were not aware of this, then they might stop oxymatrine prematurely because they felt worse initially, not knowing that it's only a transient worsening.

Though I guess if you feel really bad, you may have to stop (or lower your starting dose to say a quarter capsule).

When I first tried oxymatrine, at a time when my ME/CFS was severe, it caused greatly increased depression, and I could not handle that, so I had to stop. Then some years later when my ME/CFS had improved via other treatments, I tried it again, and this time I had no side effects, so I was able to take it for around 3 months as a test. Unfortunately it did not work for me.

Chia has also examined Th1/Th2 cytokine profiles in oxymatrine responders and non-responders. Only the responders shift to Th1. See the video linked to below.

This is just according to Dr. Chia's own anecdotes, right? How many people have actually been treated for ME/CFS using interferon and how many of those cases have been documented in the literature?

There are 3 published studies on interferon therapy for ME/CFS, one of them is Dr Chia's. There is an MEpedia article on it.

Again, the 30% figure is only according to Dr. Chia himself as far as I know, and has never been published. He's been giving Equilibrant and Oxymatrine to his patients for 15+ years and no strong evidence has come out to support its efficacy.

That's right. Dr Chia could not get funding for an oxymatrine study, so he did an informal quasi-study, which is detailed in the video here.

 

[Andrew]

FWIW, I saw Chia some years back. We stopped Equilibrant because my eczema was getting worse, and that could mean I was headed for a serious autoimmune problem. I stopped seeing him for in part because I felt disheartened along with having a full plate dealing one issues around two different cancers.

I recently decided to see him again, and that happened on Tuesday. He put me on low-dose naltrexone and Dr. Stephen Langer's Russian Rejuvenator.

He also showed an interest in my lung problems because of persistent reduction in breathing capacity. He gave me a prescription for a HRCT. Here's some info about that