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Has anyone else out there experienced this? Rigid muscles - sort of body paralysis.

Alvin2

The good news is patients don't die the bad news..
Messages
3,023
i have had mri and eeg - both clear. A sleep study would be fantastic but the NHS is not that amenable to fancy stuff. Anyway they didn’t find anything. That was for some sleep phenomena a bit like fits or ‘hypnic jerks’ - although the term hypnic jerks so woefully under exaggerates how terrible it was.
With ME, tests coming out clear is both a relief and a headache :mad:
Sleep apnea is rather common so i am surprised they are unavailable.

his is because (I think) as much muscles repair urea cycle has problems (also liver is laboured) and build up of ammonia causes a block in krebs at citrate reducing the amount of oxaloacetate that consumes glutamate to form aspartic acid which is needed in Krebs to consume ammonia 🙃. So it gets caught in a deadlock.
Yikes
The docs called that ‘anxiety’ 🙄. Sudden severe bout of anxiety that caused me fits and a different sorts of paralysis. I understand those can be ‘symptoms’ of anxiety but when the word is said it sort of dismisses the fact that anxiety is obviously caused by an underlying brain pathology right.
Doctors love clean neat and easy answers.

Someone once said:
There is always a well known solution to every human problem; neat, plausible, and wrong
That turned out to be too much glutamate
How did you figure this out?
 

Sophiedw

Senior Member
Messages
383
the glutamate I worked out in A number of ways really. Mostly because gaba agonists or glutamate blockers stopped the symptoms then in the end it made sense.

Tremor in Parkinson’s and in alcohol dependency is theorised to be caused by low gaba (opposite to glutamate). The overly electric brain (glutamate is your main excitatory neurotransmitter).

Serine stopped it for a while until it made it way worse (which is involved in astrocytes regulating the amount of glutamate at the synapse).

I had a nutraeval with very low aspartic acid and high alanine and blockages at citrate /isocitrate in krebs (can be caused by ammonia). As I say oxaloacetate + glutamate make aspartic acid and alanine makes glutamate. So kind of clicked my failing krebs was causing glutamate to build up.

Bet you’re sorry you asked! Haha.

a lot of reading this forum and other stuff basically ha. Sigh. It seems to be robust tho. So that’s fantastic and I am not complaining.

It comes on if I eat too much protein, take a-ketoglutarate which interchangeably forms glutamate and I can make the symptoms go away taking gaba enhancers (z drugs/benzos) (or drinking alcohol which is a glutamate receptor blocker - but that is not great in the long run)

I also once upon a time did a physiology/neuroscience degree so there’s some vestiges of it left behind the brain fog and memory problems.

I like your quote. Very, very true.

🙂
 

Alvin2

The good news is patients don't die the bad news..
Messages
3,023
the glutamate I worked out in A number of ways really. Mostly because gaba agonists or glutamate blockers stopped the symptoms then in the end it made sense.
Interesting, I have no idea if any of these apply in my case.

I had a nutraeval with very low aspartic acid and high alanine and blockages at citrate /isocitrate in krebs (can be caused by ammonia). As I say oxaloacetate + glutamate make aspartic acid and alanine makes glutamate. So kind of clicked my failing krebs was causing glutamate to build up.
Thats interesting as well. I don't know of nutraeval or similar being available in Canada

Bet you’re sorry you asked! Haha.
Not at all.
I always like to know how things were figured out.
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
@Sophiedw I apologize that I did not read the whole thread but have you looked into "Periodic Paralysis" (PP)? It is a rare genetic disorder or channelopathy. It can cause sudden attacks with muscle weakness, muscle stiffness, and/or paralysis. When you take Potassium, how does it affect your symptoms?
 
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bread.

Senior Member
Messages
499
I have the exact same things going on and came to the same conclusions that you came to.

I have very severe me, I went from severe to very severe with NAC, but now NAC helps me.
 

vision blue

Senior Member
Messages
1,877
i have had mri and eeg - both clear. A sleep study would be fantastic but the NHS is not that amenable to fancy stuff. Anyway they didn’t find anything. That was for some sleep phenomena a bit like fits or ‘hypnic jerks’ - although the term hypnic jerks so woefully under exaggerates how terrible it was.

That turned out to be too much glutamate which I think was caused by high ammonia poisoning krebs - that is now broadly under control from taking malic acid and/or waiting it out/limiting my protein intake. Still now if I eat a lot of protein it gives me high glutamate and same symptoms - fits tremor eye rolling.

This is because (I think) as much muscles repair urea cycle has problems (also liver is laboured) and build up of ammonia causes a block in krebs at citrate reducing the amount of oxaloacetate that consumes glutamate to form aspartic acid which is needed in Krebs to consume ammonia 🙃. So it gets caught in a deadlo!

HOw is your norepineprhine level? Just to rule out that a sudden dip would do this (i once suddnely felt like was walking in quicksand. was comical like i was in a commercial for the energizer bunny and the battery wore out and he slumped over and stopped beating his drum; i suspected a dip innor epi tho can't now remember why). YOu should be able to get urine norepi levels w/o going to docs. I used to have a place i recommend, but they merged with a crappy company and not sure i trust results now. but even an OAT has some relevent markers for that and if wanted to do it officially, i guess you can ask for 24 urine metenephrines.
not sure if it would last 3 years though continuoulsy rather than stopping and starting (though when iset my legs off triggered by going up stairs too quickly it was a few years until they gradually got more normal- but those werent rigid)

questions though=What did EMG say? you mention mri and eeg but didn't see an emg result
did neuro examine them while rigid- cogwheel rgidity? .
Is there weakness too? and is it constant with each attempt?
and - did you s ay b12 and probiotics helped or made it worse? also, the trigger was NAC or was that just one trigger? and what symptoms does your father have that's similar?
I don't suppose you thave your exome tested? (since you mentioned genetic).
(I know its a pain to answer questions, so if you can't, that's ok, but those were all the things your posts made me wonder and i didn't see answers in comments but will look again)

but what motivated me to respond even more was :hypnic jerks, ammonia, glutimate, krebs, citrate, etc.

when i ate glutimates or tyramines (often hard to distinugish so stil not sure whicy), i would get very bad myoclonic jerks that woke me up first 2 hours of sleep. I don't mean a simple jerk of one leg, but jerks were pretty extreme and dramatic - and would happen over and over again those couple of hours. started out just left side of body though sometimes while chest and shoulders, somettimes head. docs wanted to give me -oh shoot, i fogrget maybe cloz...(to the extent they cared at all) anyway, realiozed i could get rid of them by avoideing chinese food and other ageds foods. That started the aged-free food eating for many years. oddly the effects glutimate and tyramine have on me have changed thtough the years- something i don't understand. so they still cause drama but different.

i too have high ammonia in urine and will reread what you say about that.

did someone mention serine? my serine in urine is too high and i think its a bad sign especially since i was able to trace it to upregulation of the serine synthesis pathway which is tightly regulated so not supposed to happen often.

@Alvin2 You can order from canada the amino acid urine test from great plains lab. they send it to doctors data, but not sure if DD directly will send to canda but great plains will. That will give you the pathways you were intersted in that you commented on.
 
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vision blue

Senior Member
Messages
1,877
Serine stopped it for a while until it made it way worse (which is involved in astrocytes regulating the amount of glutamate at the synapse)
🙂

do you have a reference on this - serine, astrocytes, glutmate regulation? (or say more but figured a reference would save you breath) As i mentioned, have high serine in urine relative to very low other amino acids for the most part (with some exceptions like taurine wasting)
 

hapl808

Senior Member
Messages
2,108
It comes on if I eat too much protein, take a-ketoglutarate which interchangeably forms glutamate and I can make the symptoms go away taking gaba enhancers (z drugs/benzos) (or drinking alcohol which is a glutamate receptor blocker - but that is not great in the long run)

Sorry if I missed it, but what are you broadly doing to control glutamate?

I also seem to potentially have an issue there, and have tried various things (low glutamate diet, magnesium, black seed oil, etc). One thing I noticed very early on was that alcohol improved my tachycardia, but it was obviously very temporary. I thought that was interesting and of course doctors are useless when it comes to such things. I'm still mostly tachycardic, but it's worse if I eat higher glutamate or histamine foods, don't take magnesium, etc. I've also experimented with some antihistamines, cromolyn, and so forth, but hard to tell if it does much or just ends up with a rebound.
 

Zebra

Senior Member
Messages
865
Location
Northern California
The most dramatic change in my health happened when every muscle in my body suddenly went rigid one day.

Not so I couldn’t move but they had a feeling of being extremely rigid, painfully so and walking even short distances felt like moving through quicksand. This was not touched by muscle relaxants - benzos baclofen etc. So not a classically mediated neural contraction of the muscle. Rather I believe they stopped producing energy (rigor mortis) or at least entered some sort of dower (sic) state (hibernation type switch) that people like Ron Davis talk about, as if they’d completely stopped producing energy obviously would have necrotised.

Hey, @Sophiedw

I have no idea what is happening to you, but I did think of someplace you could look.

The National Institute of Health runs a program called the Undiagnosed Diseases Network (UDN). Even if you'd rather not bother applying, a section of the UDNs website showcases applicants whose cases remain unsolved.

You can basically scroll through their bios & symptoms, and if someone's case seems similar to you, you are encouraged to reach out to the UDN for interview and possible work up.

The work up, including transportation, is free for the patient and one travel companion. If you have the time and the energy it may be worth a look.
 

Sophiedw

Senior Member
Messages
383
The National Institute of Health runs a program called the Undiagnosed Diseases Network (UDN). Even if you'd rather not bother applying, a section of the UDNs website showcases applicants whose cases remain unsolved.

Wow that’s really fantastic thankyou, I definitely will contact them.