Gut & Enterovirus connect to all my new conditions

[sometexan84]

I posted a thread a while back, about how I stopped all my meds and supplements to see what would happen.

I stopped them all in March 2021. And new symptoms and conditions began manifesting pretty quickly.

I got Uveitis, Psoriatic Arthritis, Small Fiber Neuropathy, and Alopecia Areata.

Kind of randomly, I decided to see if there were any published studies showing the relationship between these conditions and Enterovirus related gut disturbances.

Persistent Enterovirus in the intestinal epithelium is the #1 infection most frequently found in ME/CFS (followed by EBV and HHV-6 as #2 and #3). It leads to intestinal permeability, gut dysbiosis, immune dysfunction, the works.

Anyway, again, kind of randomly, I googled the following...

"uveitis intestinal permeability"
"psoriatic arthritis intestinal permeability"
"small fiber neuropathy intestinal permeability"
"alopecia areata intestinal permeability"

Was not thinking I'd find what I did. Turns out, every single one is related to the gut issues that arise from the persistent EV infection. Intestinal dysbiosis and intestinal permeability are massive contributors.

These are the notes I made from the Google searches...
(not much on Enterovirus specifically in these notes, as I already know how it causes these disturbances... I do have many months worth of documentation on that though, if anyone's interested.)

(non-infectious) Uveitis – associated w/ intestinal dysbiosis

• Mice w/ uveitis successfully treated by modifying the intestinal microbiota, such as oral antibiotics or administration of oral short chain fatty acids (SCFAs)
• The treatment reduces ocular inflammation via enhancement of regulatory T cells, decreasing intestinal permeability, and/or affecting T cell trafficking between the intestines and the spleen
• Commensal gut bacteria are influential in systemic and intestinal mucosal immunity and thus contribute to the development of extraintestinal inflammation like uveitis
• Gut dysbiosis has been associated w/ “sickness behavior” and chronic fatigue.
• CFS and severe mental illness patients have increased circulating levels of the tight-junction protein zonulin, the endotoxin LPS, the gut related systemic inflammatory proteins LBP and sCD14, antibodies against endotoxins, and the acute phase protein A-1-AT
• Zonulin is a tight-junction protein and key regulator of intestinal permeability, with increased circulating levels suggesting a compromised intestinal barrier

Psoriatic Arthritis associated w/ enteric dysbiosis, enteric permeability and inflammation

• Improved on probiotics, improvements stopped post-treatment
• All Psoriatic Arthritis patients showed increased levels of the enteric permeability marker zonulin which correlated with the frequency of peripheral Th17 cells

Alopecia Areata – link found between AA and gut inflammation (as well as leaky gut)

• Also, more evidence between gut microbiota and intestinal permeability. Balanced microbiome is needed for tight epithelial barrier and functional immune system
  • Fiber and SCFA – This is yet another article that highlights fiber and SCFA in this regard…
  • “A high intake of fibers affects the make up of the intestinal microbiota, primarily increasing short-chain fatty acid concentrations that have beneficial immunomodulatory effects (eg increasing Treg numbers and function)”

Persistent Enterovirus infection is associated with increased intestinal permeability and inflammation; both pronounced in mice and children with type 1 diabetes

• Focus here was children w/ T1D
• Though EVB and EVA were both found, EV A was actually the most frequent, w/ CVA2, A4 and A16 at the top of the list

Small Fiber Neuropathy – linked to gut microbiota

• Article focuses mostly on neuropathic pain in stuff like SFN and fibromyalgia. But connects to gut, the microbiota-gut-brain axis, neurotransmitters, enteric nervous system, CNS disturbances, and a lot of the ME/CFS usual suspects.

Intestinal Epithelium and Gut Microbiota interaction

• Impairment of the innate immune functions of intestinal epithelial cells is associated with intestinal inflammation
• Intestinal epithelial cells help maintain a healthy relationship between gut microbiota and host immunity
  • IECs help segregate (or separate) gut bacteria from immune cells (in intestinal lumen and lamina propria), to prevent conflict here, that would result in intestinal inflammation
• Cytokines and Intestinal Epithelial Cells
  • IL-17 and IL-22 produced by Th17 cells upregulate the secretion of AMPs (Antimicrobial peptides) and Reg3 in IECs to help control gut microbiota
  • IL-6 (from intraepithelial lymphocytes) enhances IEC proliferation and contributes to healing from mucosal injury
  • (TNF)-α and (IFN)-γ, inhibit epithelial cell proliferation through the suppression of β-catenin/T cell factor (TCF) signaling
  • Th2 cytokines (IL-5 and IL-13) contributes to epithelial cell proliferation
  • IL-13 promotes apoptosis of IECs, leading to mucosal barrier disturbance

 

[nerd]

I think there's no disease that isn't associated with the microbiome. If you find something on it or not just depends whether someone looked. But the idea to look for viruses in the gut hasn't been explored widely.

 

[sometexan84]

I think there's no disease that isn't associated with the microbiome. If you find something on it or not just depends whether someone looked. But the idea to look for viruses in the gut hasn't been explored widely.

Sorry, I don't think I made a very clear point in my initial post.

Let me summarize...

When I stopped taking my gut-protecting supplements, stuff leaked out of my gut, and caused all of this.

After stopping the meds, my fatigue got worse, pain symptoms began, and I got these conditions.

Everything that happened after I stopped the meds, is related to intestinal permeability.

I had multiple supplements in my arsenal before that protect this. Supplements that improve intestinal barrier and function.

I'm just sharing because I was surprised, I wasn't expecting to find such a connection. And meds for intestinal permeability are a great idea, can certainly improve symptoms.

 

[hapl808]

I had multiple supplements in my arsenal before that protect this. Supplements that improve intestinal barrier and function.

What supplements were most helpful?

 

[sometexan84]

What supplements were most helpful?

Well, regarding the intestinal-related supplements I was on, these are the ones I stopped taking...

Probiotics
Monolaurin
NADH
Quercetin

At the time, I did not know that some of these can improve intestinal permeability. I was taking them for other reasons.

There were some other intestinal-related supplements I had stopped, but I need to do more research on them to confirm.

L-Glutamine for example, is something I was on that improves intestinal permeability. But part of how that works is by increasing the growth and survival of intestinal cells. So theoretically, this could make an intestinal infection worse.

 

[Mary]

@sometexan84 - have you gone back on the supplements that you had stopped? If so, were you able to resolve the above issues which showed up after you had stopped your supplements?

I started taking BCAAs in 2014, and within a week my PEM recovery time had been cut by more than half. It was astounding (I'm still astounded!) Anyways, I've been taking them ever since. However a few years ago I tried a keto diet and in less than a week my stamina decreased, I crashed easier and my recovery time was lengthening. I theorized that my body was using up all my BCAAs for fuel since I was eating so little carbs. It was scary how quickly I went downhill. I stopped the diet as soon as I realized what was happening, and increased my BCAAs until I got back to my new "normal" - which I was able to do, thank goodness!

Someone I know who has ME/CFS stopped all her supps for I think a month and she declined severely. One of her supps was BCAAs. I think she's been able to get back to baseline, but it took awhile.

It can be a bit scary to realize how dependent we are on various supplements! And eye-opening and illuminating too!

 

[hapl808]

I started taking BCAAs in 2014, and within a week my PEM recovery time had been cut by more than half. It was astounding (I'm still astounded!)

What dosage and timing for BCAA? I usually find them helpful, but wondering if I need to raise the dosage. I often just take 2g on the morning when I know PEM will be hitting later in the day.

 

[Mary]

What dosage and timing for BCAA? I usually find them helpful, but wondering if I need to raise the dosage. I often just take 2g on the morning when I know PEM will be hitting later in the day.

I take around 5000 mg a day - 2500 when I first get up on an empty stomach, and 2500 mg more late morning, or early afternoon, again on an empty stomach. @ljimbo423 takes 10,000 - 13,000 mg a day (I can never remember exactly how much!) with good results.

I take this every day.

 

[ljimbo423]

@ljimbo423 takes 10,000 - 13,000 mg a day (I can never remember exactly how much!) with good results.

Yes, I take 13 gms a day, divide into 3 doses, on an empty stomach. I don't think I noticed much of an increase in energy until I got to 6-10 gms a day. It gives me a big boost in energy.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

I stopped them all

I stopped a whole bunch of things (tired of swallowing them).

oddly, I feel better right now, than I have in the last year. Including my gut/digestion is quite calm at the present time.

this may be because I'm pretty well rested, haven't had any major pem in. while, and the vaccinations seem to have settle down.

As soon as I start trying to do errands, leave here, make appointments, tackle the list....usually down we go.

All the gut defenses require energy, in my opinion.

 

[sometexan84]

have you gone back on the supplements that you had stopped? If so, were you able to resolve the above issues which showed up after you had stopped your supplements?

I recently started them back up. Not all of them. Some I've chosen to reintroduce separately.

Like, tomorrow for instance, I'm going to reintroduce SAMe and Methionine to my body!

Well, it's still early, but my hair has grown back, or it's now growing back. The hand pain from psoriatic arthritis feels like it's almost gone already, which is a surprise.

 

[sometexan84]

It can be a bit scary to realize how dependent we are on various supplements! And eye-opening and illuminating too!

Yea, they're certainly necessary.

I do think it was a worthwhile experiment though, for me anyway.

 

[sometexan84]

I stopped a whole bunch of things (tired of swallowing them).

oddly, I feel better right now, than I have in the last year. Including my gut/digestion is quite calm at the present time.

this may be because I'm pretty well rested, haven't had any major pem in. while, and the vaccinations seem to have settle down.

As soon as I start trying to do errands, leave here, make appointments, tackle the list....usually down we go.

All the gut defenses require energy, in my opinion.

Yea, I think it's good to reset the body w/ changes in supplement routine.

There's also the small chance that you could have been taking something that was causing more harm than good. Like the thing above where I mentioned L-Glutamine.

Turns out, there's even negative effects that can occur from supplements taken together. Can't remember an example though off the top of my head.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

Like the thing above where I mentioned L-Glutamine.

I was just gifted some of that dangerous substance....

Mostly I take herbs, chinese, a mix. So they always include stirring up the liver, etc. So I am giving my liver a break. Then I take few supplements, erratically. The main one I take lately is quercitin, feel like it helps with swellings.

 

[sometexan84]

I was just gifted some of that dangerous substance....

Mostly I take herbs, chinese, a mix. So they always include stirring up the liver, etc. So I am giving my liver a break. Then I take few supplements, erratically. The main one I take lately is quercitin, feel like it helps with swellings.

Ah, Quercetin should be a good one.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

Ah, Quercetin should be a good one.

my problem is herxing and detox and trying new things which trigger all that and then I fall.

I went three weeks on my lymph cleanse herbs, doing a very very low dose. Stopped.

One glycine and one ALA: stopped.

one MAg Glycinate: for two days, now feel yucky again. blame that.

silly.

 

[sometexan84]

my problem is herxing and detox and trying new things which trigger all that and then I fall.

I went three weeks on my lymph cleanse herbs, doing a very very low dose. Stopped.

One glycine and one ALA: stopped.

one MAg Glycinate: for two days, now feel yucky again. blame that.

silly.

It is literally impossible to improve in cases like this w/out a herx.

That said, it's not always a herx. Sometimes it's just causing harm.

 

[ljimbo423]

@sometexan84

You might be interested in this video by Micheal VanElzakker that was just put on YouTube yesterday, September, 16.

This time stamp is where he starts talking about how gut dysbiosis can be detected by the vagus nerve, activate the sickness response in the brain and cause primed microglia. Causing the symptoms of ME/CFS.

 

[sometexan84]

@sometexan84

You might be interested in this video by Micheal VanElzakker that was just put on YouTube yesterday, September, 16.

This time stamp is where he starts talking about how gut dysbiosis can be detected by the vagus nerve, activate the sickness response in the brain and cause primed microglia. Causing the symptoms of ME/CFS.

Thank you!

That's a great reference, I'm definitely bookmarking this.

Yea, the microbiome-gut-brain axis is still relatively new in research. Lot of interesting stuff has been coming out from 2019ish to now.

I actually do believe in the sickness response, as a result of the gut stuff and infection, and as at least a partial cause of the fatigue.

And thanks for making the time stamp!

 

[DrUniverse]

Yes, I take 13 gms a day, divide into 3 doses, on an empty stomach. I don't think I noticed much of an increase in energy until I got to 6-10 gms a day. It gives me a big boost in energy.

May i ask in what relation are you taking it? Leucine /Iso Leucin /Valin. 4-1-1?