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Gulf War Illness = Altered gut microbiome

ljimbo423

Senior Member
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United States, New Hampshire
https://europepmc.org/articles/pmc5362211

I thought this could be relevant to us since Columbia University is finding connections with Microbiome and ME/CFS. I actually spoke with a well known pharmacist today who researches. He thinks this is the next big field, and microbiome outnumber our own cells more than 2 to 1.

I think as research continues in both ME/CFS, GWI and autoimmune illness, the gut microbiome will become more and more important.

I also agree that gut microbiome research is just in it's infancy and will become MASSIVELY important to many, many diseases/disorders, both physical and psychological.
 
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Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,799
I think as research continues in both ME/CFS, GWI and autoimmune illness, the microbiome will become more and more important.

Do you mean the microbiome, or specifically the gut microbiome? The microbiome would include, for example, the viral, bacterial, fungal, protozoal and archaeal micro-organisms present in the brain, heart and kidneys.




The study found decreased Bacteroidetes and increased Firmicutes and in the guts of those with Gulf War illness. The same decreased Bacteroidetes / Firmicutes ratio has been found in obesity, colon cancer and IBD, which are all completely different illnesses. So this finding is not specific to any particular illness.

This suggests these alterations in the Bacteroidetes / Firmicutes ratio might be a consequence rather than a cause of these diseases.

But these findings may be spurious anyway: this paper found that differences in the measuring techniques used to analyze human stool led to a three-fold difference in the Bacteroidetes to Firmicutes ratio.
 
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Belbyr

Senior Member
Messages
602
Location
Memphis
Do you mean the microbiome, or specifically the gut microbiome? The microbiome would include, for example, the viral, bacterial, fungal, protozoal and archaeal micro-organisms present in the brain, heart and kidneys.





The study found decreased Bacteroidetes and increased Firmicutes and in the guts of those with Gulf War illness. The same decreased Bacteroidetes / Firmicutes ratio has been found in obesity, colon cancer and IBD, which are all completely different illnesses. So this finding is not specific to any particular illness.

This suggests these alterations in the Bacteroidetes / Firmicutes ratio might a consequence rather than a cause of these diseases.

But these findings may be spurious anyway: this paper found that differences in the measuring technique used to analyze human stool led to a three-fold difference in the Bacteroidetes to Firmicutes ratio.


I don't think it is causative but maybe could provide an answer to a lot of the IBS seen in all these chronic illnesses. I still think there is something major going on with the immune/neurological system.
 

ljimbo423

Senior Member
Messages
4,705
Location
United States, New Hampshire
Do you mean the microbiome, or specifically the gut microbiome? The microbiome would include, for example, the viral, bacterial, fungal, protozoal and archaeal micro-organisms present in the brain, heart and kidneys.

I mean the gut microbiome. I edited my post to make it clear that I mean "gut" microbiome and not the entire microbiome.:thumbsup:
 

ljimbo423

Senior Member
Messages
4,705
Location
United States, New Hampshire
The study found decreased Bacteroidetes and increased Firmicutes and in the guts of those with Gulf War illness.

The same decreased Bacteroidetes / Firmicutes ratio has been found in obesity, colon cancer and IBD, which are all completely different illnesses. So this finding is not specific to any particular illness.

This suggests these alterations in the Bacteroidetes / Firmicutes ratio might be a consequence rather than a cause of these diseases.

Why couldn't the the dysbiosis be a cause or a trigger for these diseases? Dysbiosis can cause increased intestinal permeability, which causes low grade systemic inflammation.

All of the diseases you mentioned are linked to chronic inflammation, as are all autoimmune diseases.

Conclusion
Apart from IBD, IBS, metabolic diseases and intestinal failure in critically ill patients, other diseases might be related to the gut microbiota and the intestinal barrier such as celiac disease [175],[176], colon carcinoma [257] or inflammatory joint diseases [258].

Therefore, alteration of the gut barrier seems to have multiple consequences facilitating the onset of a variety of diseases depending on other hits and on genetic or epigenetic constellations, respectively.


The growing significance of the gut barrier and bacterial translocation raises the questions of how we can improve gut barrier functions and gut microbiota.
Link to paper

Messages: Although no direct cause-and-effect relationship has been confirmed, all clinical and experimental data suggest the importance of intestinal hyperpermeability in the inflammatory changes of various diseases.

Increased intestinal permeability is a new target for disease prevention and therapy. Considering the close relationship of ‘the leaky gut' and gut dysbiosis to the major diseases, we can conclude that meticulous dietetic and probiotic approaches to recover healthy microbiota have the potential to make a breakthrough in the management of these diseases tomorrow.

Notice on the right of the picture of the brain below, it lists Chronic fatigue syndrome. Suggesting that the brain is heavily involved in the cause of ME/CFS.

ME/CFS researcher Jarred Younger says he thinks that low grade brain inflammation from something is causing ME/CFS.

upload_2018-12-11_12-31-7.png

Link to paper

There are countless research papers that connect dysbiosis and increased intestinal permeability (leaky gut) as a possible cause or a trigger in chronic diseases and disorders like autoimmune diseases and many others as the picture above shows.

ME/CFS researcher Chris Armstrong has made it very clear that he believes that ME/CFS starts in the gut, from increased intestinal permeability (leaky gut).

I just want to point out that these are still hypothesis's and not accepted as fact as of yet. Although I'm completely convinced they will be as the research continues.

Of course each person needs to decide for themselves what they think is the truth.
For myself, I need not look any further than the gut, as Chris Armstrong suggests.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,799
Why couldn't the the dysbiosis be a cause or a trigger for these diseases?

I have not seen any evidence that the dysbiosis is present before these various diseases manifest. Do you know of any longitudinal studies that have looked at this?

If dysbiosis were present before, then conceivably it might be part of the trigger or cause. But if dysbiosis only appears after these diseases manifest, then that's suggestive of it being a consequence of the disease (but even though it might be a consequence, it may also play a role in worsening the disease symptoms).
 

Murph

:)
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1,792
(but even though it might be a consequence, it may also play a role in worsening the disease symptoms).

I agree with this. Gut dysbiosis could theoretically be a consequence, and also the reason the condition becomes chronic, i.e wont' heal. Or it could be the reason a condition worsens rather than remaining stable.

Even though, to me, it doesn't feel like the initial insult was digestive, my ongoing symptoms are highly gut-related.

Totally made-up hypothesis: the gut, which is highly vascular, maintains eubiosis through some sort of unknown action that depends on a heatlhy gut wall. The primary cause of me/cfs is shitty circulation but that means our gut doesn't get enough oxygen. So the guts fail, our microbiome goes into dysbiosis, that increases the pressure on the gut wall, which leaks LPS into our bloodstreams. We get secondary immune effects, making everything much worse.