Getting sick from having blood drawn

[jim777]

Just wondering if anyone has experienced this. It has held me back from getting tests done. I'm too afraid to get blood drawn after my last experience.

Here is what happened.

I had my blood drawn and I I got really sick. I had to have the lady that was doing the blood draw take me to a back room to lay down. I was soaked with sweat (I'm not a "sweaty" person) and I felt really ill. The lady that drew my blood was asking if she should call an ambulance.

I finally went home and for a week I had trouble lifting my head up... I felt lightheaded and I was disabled for a solid week after the blood draw. I basically just laid in bed for the next week.

I felt so ill and it scared me, the effects lasted for so long afterwards that it scared me from going in to have any more blood drawn.

Just wanted to see if anyone else experienced this and also if anyone knows why I might have got so sick.

Thanks

Jim

 

[xebex]

Yes it’s called vaso vagal syncope but you probably got to lie down before you fainted. It’s to do with vagus nerve tone apparently, as I was told by a nurse, high vagal tone, but in chronic illness usually we have low vagal tone, regardless it’s due to dysfunctional vagus nerve.

you could try asking to lie down right away before they even take the blood next time to see if it would help.

 

[hapl808]

Yes it’s called vaso vagal syncope but you probably got to lie down before you fainted. It’s to do with vagus nerve tone apparently, as I was told by a nurse, high vagal tone, but in chronic illness usually we have low vagal tone, regardless it’s due to dysfunctional vagus nerve.

I get it, but I don't think it's just vasovagal syncope for me (which goes away relatively quickly and doesn't tend to be harmful as long as you don't fall). And I make sure to be extremely hydrated before blood work because in the past I always found it made me feel awful, so I don't think it's dehydration.

For me, it feels much more like hypovolemic shock (like after a car accident or bad injury). Last time it happened, I got very nauseous, broke out into a cold sweat, my pulse got fast and thready, my vision started to white out, and I started shaking (I could barely speak because I was shaking so badly) and my body temperature crashed.

I was getting it done at the hospital, so they arranged an ER transfer because it didn't look like syncope to them, either. While waiting they piled heat packs on me and gave me hot water to drink. I was starting to stabilize before they moved me to the ER and after about an hour I stopped convulsing and eventually they released me and I went home.

Unfortunately it also caused an overall crash that I never recovered from - which precipitated my descent from bad moderate into severe.

 

[hapl808]

So yeah, I'm not really going to get blood work unless there's a really good reason. Because blood draw stations think I just have syncope, and then they have no clue what to do if I have a really bad reaction other than call the ER.

 

[xebex]

hmm, @hapl808 - honestly i don't mean to argue but it IS a severe vasovagal response, I get similar responses to just pooping, it's due to damaged vagus nerve. I'm sure you will be able to find similar stories if you go to dysautonomia forums.

I had the exact same thing as you describe after having bloods done, it caused me to miscarry my 2nd pregnancy and started my second ME downturn after 5 years in remission. Our nervous systems are shot - so it's the trigger to send the ANS haywire, but was "just" syncope.

EDIT: I should add that I totally believe that the body could be responding as if In hypovilemic shock it’s detected blood loss so overreacts and send the signals to shut down. But it’s NOT hupovilemic shock because there is no life threatening blood loss.

 

[hapl808]

I had the exact same thing as you describe after having bloods done, it caused me to miscarry my 2nd pregnancy and started my second ME downturn after 5 years in remission. Our nervous systems are shot - so it's the trigger to send the ANS haywire, but was "just" syncope.

I think some of this is semantic, and the literature has some disagreement about it. I agree it's not hypovolemic from blood loss (even significant blood work is only 50ml or so). But I don't think it's 'just' syncope. I don't think vasovagal syncope leads to a miscarriage or a permanent degrading of the ANS unless you fall so badly that you injure yourself.

But I never lost consciousness. I had significant difficulty seeing because everything went overexposed. This has happened to me once before after a bad injury. You can go into shock without losing X% of your blood volume. And shock can still be dangerous.

My opinion (no way to prove) is that it's not vasovagal syncope per se, even if the vagus nerve is somehow involved (isn't it involved in everything?). Syncope would imply fainting, and then relatively quick recovery. A lot of the symptoms overlap, but the extreme convulsions for 45 minutes, the rather alarming and persistent drop in core body temperature, never losing consciousness, and the worsening of my overall physical condition (for years) does not sound like syncope.

This is our problem with many things. We don't fit into boxes, but doctors have boxes and they must jam them into it.

I believe syncope just means literally the loss of consciousness.

In the end, I don't care what it is, only how to treat it. Extra fluids, sitting or lying down during the procedure, etc - all make a slight difference, but don't do much. If it were just vasovagal syncope, that should pretty much fix it. Last phlebotomist did it at home with me lying down and still with my reaction she wasn't comfortable taking more than one vial. Makes it hard to get tests.

I do wonder if there are other ways to 'pre-treat' potential shock. For instance, stimulants (like you would get after going into shock), etc?

 

[hapl808]

I should add that I totally believe that the body could be responding as if In hypovilemic shock it’s detected blood loss so overreacts and send the signals to shut down. But it’s NOT hupovilemic shock because there is no life threatening blood loss.

And I think the body may think it's going into hypovolemic shock, and the end results could be life threatening if your brain stops blood flowing to the right places. You can go into shock without pure blood loss, otherwise it would be easier to diagnose.

The fact that my shaking persisted for such a long period and they could not get my body temperature up even with heat packs all over me for 45 minutes does not sound at all like syncope. Body temperature is a pretty objective measure and if it falls far enough can be dangerous. That was why they called for an ER transfer.

Again, this is a problem with ME/CFS and the appearance of things and the lack of nuance. The reality was that I never recovered from that incident and it was years ago. That would sound silly and histrionic in other venues, but I think many people here understand that some things can do permanent damage to us, so it doesn't matter if it's harmless to other people or the mechanism is not understood.

The number of doctors who told me I could push through any physical pain or fatigue with no risk of long term damage. They were absolutely correct based on what was taught to them in medical school, but as many of us have found they were absolutely wrong in reality.

 

[xebex]

Ok yes semantics for sure.

i think it’s the vagus nerve mimicking state of shock IMO caused by dysfunctional vagus nerve and likely brought on by the same mechanism that syncope would be brought on.

I have also had a seizure when getting blood but don’t believe it’s a true seizure it’s not electrical firing gone wrong like epilepsy it’s more of a response from temporary hypoxia in the brain. I’ve seen VERY fit atheletes go into these siezures after hitting their heads from crashing their bikes - the paramedics said it was not a true seizure and is a bodily response to temporary hypoxia.

interestingly I did tell my dentist about this and he said wow sounds like shock!

 

[xebex]

Also I personally don’t believe it’s life threatening to me it’s like the difference between migraine and stroke. Both a similar symptoms and mechanism but one involves temporary and extremely minimal interruption to oxygen levels.

 

[hapl808]

Also I personally don’t believe it’s life threatening to me it’s like the difference between migraine and stroke. Both a similar symptoms and mechanism but one involves temporary and extremely minimal interruption to oxygen levels.

Yeah, a tough thing to test. To me, a migraine is awful and I may get nauseous and have trouble standing or seeing, but it doesn't feel like I'm dying. It just sucks.

Going into shock after blood tests feels like an hour of dying. Weak and nauseous, 150+ heart rate, constant convulsions, etc. I doubt it's actually life threatening, but I do think it could cause permanent damage. I mean, if your miscarriage was triggered by it (which sounds awful), then that's proof itself.

I think sometimes in ME/CFS there's a tendency to think everything isn't 'serious' if it doesn't kill you. Obviously with your personal experience you're not doing that, but I think it's an easy trap. We become inured to our own suffering, so anything that doesn't kill us we just kinda shrug. Anyone without ME/CFS would likely not do that. Like when people ask us if we've gone to the doctor about some symptom, and we're like: that's maybe symptom 23 on my list of importance.

And interesting - I think dentists are used to people going into shock because it can happen with certain procedures and combinations of anesthetic, gas, etc. Obviously you're not losing 15% of your blood, but you can still go into mild shock and I imagine it could be dangerous if ignored?

 

[hapl808]

I have also had a seizure when getting blood but don’t believe it’s a true seizure it’s not electrical firing gone wrong like epilepsy it’s more of a response from temporary hypoxia in the brain. I’ve seen VERY fit atheletes go into these siezures after hitting their heads from crashing their bikes - the paramedics said it was not a true seizure and is a bodily response to temporary hypoxia.

I don't know enough about seizure, but a seizure from temporary hypoxia sounds ... kind of awful? I mean EMTs may see worse, but that sounds like it definitely has the potential for long term damage (like TBI itself).

 

[jim777]

Thanks for the replies xebex and hapl808.

This has given me a lot to think about.

The initial sickness was really scary but hat bothered me even more was how bad I felt for the next week...I couldn't do anything I was so bad. Just lifting my head up bothered me.

 

[hapl808]

The initial sickness was really scary but hat bothered me even more was how bad I felt for the next week...I couldn't do anything I was so bad. Just lifting my head up bothered me.

This is also what bothered me. And it was days or a week to recover, until one time it just never really got better. That's the challenge with ME/CFS - some things can knock us down the scale long term and it's very hard to predict.

 

[msmom]

Maybe it's low blood volume:

• a healthy person [has] roughly five quarts of blood
• someone with ME...[may have just] three or four quarts
• normally anti-diuretic hormone, shunting, and other mechanisms can correct low blood volume
• eighty percent of ME patients were abnormal ...for people with POTS (which can co-exist with ME) low blood volume occurred in up to 40%
• ME patients have a volume that can be as low as 50% of normal.
• one liter of normal saline can nearly reverse the symptoms of ME in about three quarters of patients

https://www.healthrising.org/forums...blood-volume-in-chronic-fatigue-syndrome.234/

 

[jim777]

Maybe it's low blood volume:

• a healthy person [has] roughly five quarts of blood
• someone with ME...[may have just] three or four quarts
• normally anti-diuretic hormone, shunting, and other mechanisms can correct low blood volume
• eighty percent of ME patients were abnormal ...for people with POTS (which can co-exist with ME) low blood volume occurred in up to 40%
• ME patients have a volume that can be as low as 50% of normal.
• one liter of normal saline can nearly reverse the symptoms of ME in about three quarters of patients

https://www.healthrising.org/forums...blood-volume-in-chronic-fatigue-syndrome.234/

Thanks MsMom

I never thought of this. I'm just wondering if there is any way that I can find out if my blood volume is low without a major hassle.

Jim