German study finds xmrv

[bel canto]

With a 3-4% general rate, Kati, you probably have had many exposures as a nurse.

 

[Otis]

Well, I think it's obviously more likely that immunosuppressed people would have XMRV than people without suprression of the immune system - As it's probably more likely that immunosuppressed people would catch a lot of other bacteria's and viruses... But I don't think that it implies that XMRV is an opportunistic infection in ME/CFS... I mean, immunosupressed people that had the bacteria that causes tuberculosis i n their body before getting immunosupressors have higher chance of getting sick with tuberculosis... Does it say that the tuberculosis bacteria is an opportunistic infection in those who have tuberculosis? Well, it might be opportunistic, but it is the bacteria that causes their tuberculosis.

We might have caught XMRV for various of reasons (for exmple: Genetics or perhaps just bad luck). The immunosupressed people probably caught it more than those who are not on immunosupressors, since, well, their immune system is supressed and they might catch influenza more often too. But it doesn't say that our immune system was supressed before, and than we got XMRV, and that XMRV didn't cause our illnesses. And if the WPI's numbers of about 98% ME/CFS patients that has XMRV are even somewhat close to be correct, and the precentage of healthy people (3.7%) that have it is also somewhat close to be correct, I think it's very very unlikely that XMRV is just an opportunistic infection in people with ME/CFS - Because as you can see people with suppressed immune system get XMRV probably three times more than people with a normal immune system - but not 26.49 more times (which is the proportion between 98 and 3.7).

Am I wrong here people?

Perhaps it is obvious to everybody but me, but it seems there actully 2 events we need to discuss and without making a distinction the conversation gets more confusing. The first is exposure to XMRV and the second is actually contracting the virus.

We must somehow be more susceptible to contracting the virus once we are exposed. This would seem to be a faulty layer in the immune system that precedes any damage done by XMRV. Genetics is one reasonable hypothesis.

As a result I can't see XMRV being the entire cause of what ails us, but that is not to say XMRV doesn't do most of the damage. We just don't know.

Fire away smart people!

 

[bluebell]

Lol, I like the picture you have of Germans

My dad went to boarding school there. If you could see the way he loads a dishwasher you would understand;-)

 

[Kati]

With a 3-4% general rate, Kati, you probably have had many exposures as a nurse.

The sad part is it would be very hard for worker's compensation board to accept this kind of exposure- they want a source- in order to explain infection and insure this was not caught outside of work. Interestingly, should firefighters get throat or lung cancer, they get compensated, regardless whether they smoke- and WCB will never ask them to prove from which house they got the exposure from...

 

[bel canto]

The sad part is it would be very hard for worker's compensation board to accept this kind of exposure- they want a source- in order to explain infection and insure this was not caught outside of work. Interestingly, should firefighters get throat or lung cancer, they get compensated, regardless whether they smoke- and WCB will never ask them to prove from which house they got the exposure from...

That might change based on all this info, coming out.

 

[awol]

The sad part is it would be very hard for worker's compensation board to accept this kind of exposure- they want a source- in order to explain infection and insure this was not caught outside of work. Interestingly, should firefighters get throat or lung cancer, they get compensated, regardless whether they smoke- and WCB will never ask them to prove from which house they got the exposure from...

Kati,

This is a form of machismo. Those guys (mostly men) being rewarded for their "bravery". Nursing not seen as "brave". Ridiculousness.

 

[Rivotril]

I havent got the energy to read to whole thread, so sorry if this was asked before:
but what was the patient group that was studies here diagnosed by? ME/CFS? and on which criteria?
I just read immunocompromised...

 

[Nina]

My dad went to boarding school there. If you could see the way he loads a dishwasher you would understand;-)

Or maybe not, it might be the same way I (used to) load a dishwasher

 

[Rivotril]

Think I understand it, they just compared controls with immunocompromised patients.
the latter one have more chance of catching an infection or something like that, like the chance you get HIV by e.g. sexual contact/blood is also larger when your immune system is already bad.
like omarbasket mentioned above, the 4%-98% difference makes it very unlikely that in case of ME/CFS is an opportunistic kind of thing

 

[bel canto]

this study does not have a cfs component. It's looking at xmrv related to respiratory issues, and includes an immunosuppressed group that is post-transplant, etc.

 

[omerbasket]

Perhaps it is obvious to everybody but me, but it seems there actully 2 events we need to discuss and without making a distinction the conversation gets more confusing. The first is exposure to XMRV and the second is actually contracting the virus.

We must somehow be more susceptible to contracting the virus once we are exposed. This would seem to be a faulty layer in the immune system that precedes any damage done by XMRV. Genetics is one reasonable hypothesis.

As a result I can't see XMRV being the entire cause of what ails us, but that is not to say XMRV doesn't do most of the damage. We just don't know.

Fire away smart people!

I don't know. I think that it might also be possible that every human being have the same opportunity to get infected with XMRV, and we are people who got infected with XMRV somehow - might be just coincidental and not due to defects in our immune system - and after getting infected with XMRV for some reason we got sick and other infected with XMRV remained healthy (it's possible that for some genetic reason we are susceptible to getting sick due to XMRV whereas they are not).

 

[paddygirl]

I know that this is off topic but not sure where to put it. (As usual, I didn't read the small print) Today the WPI site had an article about clearing XMRV from blood, inactivation? It gives a link to the company working with the WPI. Dying to know what it means, I think it's significant but not sure, anyone here seen it?

 

[bel canto]

we don't have enough info on exposure rates and infection rates in various non-cfs groups - just hints here and there. I'll bet there's a lot of work going on to resolve those issues!

 

[bel canto]

I know that this is off topic but not sure where to put it. (As usual, I didn't read the small print) Today the WPI site had an article about clearing XMRV from blood, inactivation? It gives a link to the company working with the WPI. Dying to know what it means, I think it's significant but not sure, anyone here seen it?

I think that link relates to possibly clearing xmrv from blood that's been donated. May have no benefit to an infected person.

 

[gu3vara]

I don't know. I think that it might also be possible that every human being have the same opportunity to get infected with XMRV, and we are people who got infected with XMRV somehow - might be just coincidental and not due to defects in our immune system - and after getting infected with XMRV for some reason we got sick and other infected with XMRV remained healthy (it's possible that for some genetic reason we are susceptible to getting sick due to XMRV whereas they are not).

Perhaps some people with autoimmune diseases are more likely to get sick for example, I have hashimoto thyroiditis and it's pretty common among CFS patients. Hypothyroidism depressed the immune system substantially.

 

[bullybeef]

Didn't Dr. M recently suggest XMRV maybe relating to bowel disease too? It could have it's fingers in many pies.

 

[DysautonomiaXMRV]

2- Does this settle the argument that XMRV has been in Europe for at the very least 4 years:

Hi I don't know if you mean 4 years, or the Dr Coffin guess of XMRV being around at '40' years? But yes XMRV is in Europe for sure or people with ME CFS would't keep testing positive for it who were born here and have never left Europe.

XMRV doesn't exist in the UK according to Wessely & McClure - they say. ''If it was there, we would have found it''. And the other classic: "We are confident that our results show there is no link between XMRV and chronic fatigue syndrome, at least in the UK. Egg on face much for the Imperial College London I think. I wonder how stupid they will look in the next few months!!!! Did they realliy think no one else would bother looking at XMRV? :victory:

 

[girlinthesnow]

Perhaps some people with autoimmune diseases are more likely to get sick for example, I have hashimoto thyroiditis and it's pretty common among CFS patients. Hypothyroidism depressed the immune system substantially.

Interesting thought, this is my situation too and timing with gettting ill corresponds also.

 

[natasa778]

We must somehow be more susceptible to contracting the virus once we are exposed. This would seem to be a faulty layer in the immune system that precedes any damage done by XMRV. Genetics is one reasonable hypothesis.

The susceptibility could very likely be down to different genetic polymorphisms related to cell membrane receptors that allow or don't allow xmrv to enter cells (XPR1 is one known receptors, there are likely some others...).

For example HIV uses CCR5 as a co-receptor to penetrate cells, individuals with certain CCR5 polymorphisms are more resistant to HIV infection or to neurological damage by HIV etc etc

The other factor could be genetic polymorphisms in APOBEC and similar immune pathways, related to cellular immunity, ie ways of dealing with xmrv once inside the cell...

There are many other genetic susceptibilty factors but imo those will turn out the most important in determining who gets sick and who does not, as far as genes are related.

 

[dsdmom]

I recently heard that there were 2 new studies coming out within the next week - one confirmatory and one negative. I am unsure if this is the confirmatory one or if there is another coming down the pipeline...