Functional Vitamin B12 deficiency in Chronic Fatigue Syndrome... (Russel-Jones, 2022)

[GreenMachineX]

That's really interesting - perhaps you are now 'replete' in B12! For me, taking T3 has been the only thing that has dispersed brain fog. Molybdenum is the other thing that has really benefitted me, by improving my stomach acid so that I no longer need to take Betaine HCl with each meal. If I stop it for even 2 days, I notice reflux coming back, so know for sure it's the Moly.

Molybdenum has stopped your reflux???

 

[Wishful]

It's highly unlikely ME/CFS is caused by one single problem. ... so that one simple solution is unlikely to cure almost all of us.

My perspective is that there is one root cause--one metabolic pathway or cell structural element--which can be affected by a large array of factors, and have a variety of effects on other functions in the body. If we could treat that single error, it should be a comprehensive treatment for most of us. The fact that three different treatments triggered a complete and rapid switch out of the ME state is my main evidence of this 'single root cause' theory.

 

[Jadzhia]

I tend to see nutritional deficiency theories of ME/CFS as a kindergarten medical science.

Nutrition involves just tiny a handful of vitamins, minerals, fatty acids, etc. But there are millions of pathways in the body which can become dysfunctional, and these dysfunctions are nothing to with nutritional levels. The area of nutrition is just a drop in the ocean compared to the full complexity of the body. Thus very unlikely that nutritional factors would be involved in ME/CFS, especially given how easy it is to correct these factors with supplements.

I'm not sure how you know where to draw the line between what is affected by nutrition and what is not? How do you know if a dysfunction has nothing to do with nutritional levels? I see the body as one fantastic system, all interconnected, with so much we have no notion of at all. What I do know is that the body doesn't materialise out of nothing and has to be continually renewed over time - where is it getting the materials from if not our food (and to some extent light/oxygen etc)? For me, nutrition is incredibly important. Just how I see it! I can see from the number of posts you have that you must have been enduring CFS/ME for a long time, and will have very different experiences and outlook to me, so that's OK. Here to learn and to see other perspectives!

Having said that, I found that taking high-dose selenium substantially improved my ME/CFS just on its own (see this thread), so supplements can help in ME/CFS.

Greg would criticise your use of Selenomethionine. Doesn't think it's very useful, thinks it largely stays inactive in the blood (although it appears to be doing something in your case). He has always recommended Sodium Selenite (and I think he said the Selenate form would be OK too). He bases this on the fact that farmers use Selenite in animal feed, not Selenomethionine, and thinks that they would use whatever is the optimal form for healthy animals. So if I ever find myself inclined to moo and eat hay, I will know why!

I take 200 mcg Selenite daily (liquid form) along with Iodine (300 mcg) and Molybdenum (450 mcg), the latter also as a liquid. I have had 'start up' reactions (adrenaline type) to all three of these elements and had to build them up slowly, I think I'm on the right dose for me now (for the time being!). My digestion soon tells me if I am getting enough.

That's a great thread on Selenium, btw. *bookmarks*

Hi Jadzhia! Do you see anything wrong with a b complex that includes hydro, adeno and methylcbl? I found this one that gave me a lot of clean energy https://rawrevelations.com/b-complex/ until I took too many days in a row and had a methyl trapping situation... but im thinking if i spread out dosing it might be good.

As yet I haven't found a B-complex I think would be right for me, so maybe I'm not the right person to ask for advice! Greg's group prefer those without B12 and folate added (he prefers us to get folate from leafy green veg) and of course to use transdermal B12.

i am slow COMT and homo MTHFR c677t. The only b vitamin that is showing to be low for me is folate, but I figured I should take all of the bs instead of just the folate. now with the methyl trap.. im assuming b12 might be appearing as normal on test but truly isnt functioning properly?

B12 can be deceptive on blood tests as you can have an inactive form in your blood yet these show as having high levels of B12, so your doctor thinks you are fine, but in fact you are 'paradoxically deficient'. Greg reckons the genes aren't a problem unless you have functional B2 deficiency - i.e. your riboflavin isn't getting activated to FMN/FAD. So much gets back to B2, I think it's very important to make sure you are getting enough, either via dairy products or supplements.

 

[Jadzhia]

Molybdenum has stopped your reflux???

Yup. Go figure! I was as surprised as you sound! I had built up from taking potassium Iodide first (up to 300 mcg) then added sodium selenite (got to 200 mcg of that) and still had reflux. Was taking Betaine HCl, figured that would be for life. However! Then I added in Molybdenum, had to start really low as it gave me adrenaline reactions, but by the time I got to around 200 mcg I noticed I was getting pain after eating and having Betaine HCl, and realised maybe I didn't need it, so the next proper meal I didn't have any, and to my surprise was fine! This has continued ever since (been over a year now). The only time I lapse back is if I inadvertently run out of Moly, or the liquid Moly I take gets too old (3 months seems to be its limit of 'active' life). So yeah, unexpected good result!

 

[Wishful]

Having said that, I found that taking high-dose selenium substantially improved my ME/CFS just on its own (see this thread), so supplements can help in ME/CFS.

For me it was T2 or iodine. I found some other supplements useful at different times, but only for a limited time. before they stopped working, or the problem went away. I had a neighbour who went from a raging anger monster to a calm, pleasant person after taking supplemental selenium. Thus supplements can help.

I agree that it's generally not as simple as a deficiency which can be corrected by supplements. I'm convinced that I wasn't deficient in T2 or iodine, but the sudden rise in availability of T2 that did something (RNA transcription?) that steady levels didn't do. The body has a large number of regulatory mechanisms that maintain nutrient levels even when intake is reduced or increased. With all the interactions with cofactors and all the interrelated pathways, it's definitely not as simple as "The test shows you're low in <whatever>, so this supplement will solve all your problems". A blood test might show you have a low level of iodine and elevated level of selenium, but it's certainly possible that the reality is that supplemental iodine will make you feel worse, while supplemental selenium will help.

It's possible for a nutrient test to show a problem that can be corrected by supplements, but I think it's fairly rare for it to work that way. Are there any statistics for success rates for testing and its recommendations for supplements? Finding metabolic disorders from elevated levels might be more common.

 

[hapl808]

hen I added in Molybdenum, had to start really low as it gave me adrenaline reactions, but by the time I got to around 200 mcg I noticed I was getting pain after eating and having Betaine HCl, and realised maybe I didn't need it, so the next proper meal I didn't have any, and to my surprise was fine! This has continued ever since (been over a year now). The only time I lapse back is if I inadvertently run out of Moly, or the liquid Moly I take gets too old (3 months seems to be its limit of 'active' life). So yeah, unexpected good result!

That's interesting. I have awful acid reflux, but only after any stimulation (maybe adrenaline or dopamine). If I talk on the phone too long or work on the computer too much, I'll wake up the next morning with horrible reflux. Betaine HCL doesn't really affect it. Nor does pretty much anything I've tried. Haven't taken molybdenum except as part of other supplements, so I'll have to look into it.

 

[Hip]

I'm not sure how you know where to draw the line between what is affected by nutrition and what is not? How do you know if a dysfunction has nothing to do with nutritional levels? I see the body as one fantastic system, all interconnected, with so much we have no notion of at all. What I do know is that the body doesn't materialise out of nothing and has to be continually renewed over time - where is it getting the materials from if not our food (and to some extent light/oxygen etc)? For me, nutrition is incredibly important. Just how I see it! I can see from the number of posts you have that you must have been enduring CFS/ME for a long time, and will have very different experiences and outlook to me, so that's OK. Here to learn and to see other perspectives!

This "you are what you eat" perspective of health is fine for articles in glossy lifestyle magazines, but such notions are not medical science. Disease has very complex mechanisms, which we are only beginning to understand.

Nutrition is like putting petrol in the tank, replenishing the engine oil, and refilling the windscreen wiper fluid. All necessary things; but when your engine blows a gasket and needs major repair, refilling the windscreen fluid is not going to get to fix the problem!

Greg would criticise your use of Selenomethionine. Doesn't think it's very useful, thinks it largely stays inactive in the blood (although it appears to be doing something in your case). He has always recommended Sodium Selenite (and I think he said the Selenate form would be OK too).

I switched to sodium selenite during my testing of the B12 oils in order to follow Greg's protocol.

I later switched back to my usual selenomethionine or methylselenocysteine, as these have much better oral bioavailability (near 100% absorption, whereas selenite or selenate are only 50% absorbed).

 

[Wishful]

This "you are what you eat" perspective of health is fine for articles in glossy lifestyle magazines,

A lot of treatments, even from 'natural foods, herbs&spices' are effective because one of the component molecules has a very specific arrangement of atoms. That has nothing to do with 'naturalness' or 'yin' or whatever terms are used in those fancy magazines; it's simple geometry and physics. Olive oil (harvested at the new moon and cold-pressed by virgins thinking healthy thoughts) isn't inherently healthy; the specific geometry of its fatty acids is a match for certain molecules in our body, allowing it to be used efficiently for creating lipid membranes, signalling molecules, or whatever else providing healthier results than the specific geometry of corn oil or palm oil. Even that might vary with where the person was born, what foods they grew up eating, and various other factors.

Then there are those people who live on mac&cheese and outlive the people who religiously follow the directions in the 'healthy living' magazines.

 

[Jadzhia]

This "you are what you eat" perspective of health is fine for articles in glossy lifestyle magazines, but such notions are not medical science.

When I was in my late teens (a very long time ago as I'm now mid-60s!) I came across the work of an American named Adelle Davis, who was a nutritionist and biochemist. A few of you may have heard of her, or it may be well before your time. She wrote several books on nutrition and 'Eat Right to Keep Fit' was one of the titles. This book was recommended to my mother, who then became very interested in the whole idea of nutrition (and to be fair eventually became quite obsessive about it, but that's another story), but sadly as she would have told anyone, she didn't have the brains to follow the biochemistry. I on the other hand, did. I was looking for inspiration for what direction to take in life, and upon reading the first few chapters of this book, which was crammed with biochemical pathways and how various nutrients are essential and various points, I knew biochemistry was what I wanted to do. I will always be grateful to Adelle for giving me that gift.

The point I'm making here is that this wasn't 'glossy magazine' stuff. No 'yin and yang'. It was very definitely medical science, and Adelle used to help many people overcome various health problems. Her books are densely packed with biochemical information and each is rigorously researched and papers are quoted throughout. She was obviously a very motivated, educated and driven person, wanting to help others be well. Obviously that was back in the 50s-60s and so much research has moved on, but there is still plenty to be had from this approach. Greg Russell-Jones is the first person I have come across since then who seems to be on the same page, although he is very B12-focused rather than more general. Adelle was also a better writer than he is and far better at explaining complex stuff.

I remember after Adelle came 'Food Combining' (anyone remember that?) and the Atkins Diet, and so on and so forth. I lost interest in most of the ensuing fads (especially the 'fat is bad for you' malarkey), but I did go on to get a degree in Biochemistry. That was a very long time ago and poor health has fogged over a lot of it, but I do appreciate the wonder of our complex biochemistry and genetics and marvel over how it all works together.

 

[Wishful]

It was very definitely medical science, and Adelle used to help many people overcome various health problems.

There certainly are health problems that can be diagnosed by nutrient testing, and be treated by supplements or diet management. However, I expect that those cases are a tiny fraction of the claims made for those techniques, and the desirable claims ("This test/food/supplement will solve all your problems!") are taken in devout faith by people who can't follow the science. I do wonder what fraction of the total spent on those techniques actually results in improved health.

 

[Judee]

Greg would criticise your use of Selenomethionine. Doesn't think it's very useful, thinks it largely stays inactive in the blood (although it appears to be doing something in your case). He has always recommended Sodium Selenite (and I think he said the Selenate form would be OK too). He bases this on the fact that farmers use Selenite in animal feed, not Selenomethionine, and thinks that they would use whatever is the optimal form for healthy animals. So if I ever find myself inclined to moo and eat hay, I will know why!

I take 200 mcg Selenite daily (liquid form) along with Iodine (300 mcg) and Molybdenum (450 mcg), the latter also as a liquid. I have had 'start up' reactions (adrenaline type) to all three of these elements and had to build them up slowly, I think I'm on the right dose for me now (for the time being!). My digestion soon tells me if I am getting enough.

When you talk about 'start up' reactions do you mean like a fever? I don't get fevers but my temp has been spiking up to 'normal' people zone making me feel feverish since I switched from the Selenomethionine to the Selenite form. I just wonder if it's doing something antiviral in my system. Hopefully.

I haven't felt inclined to moo yet or eat hay, though. Should I be watching for those symptoms as well?

Also could you tell me which kind of liquid Molybdnum you are using?

 

[Jadzhia]

When you talk about 'start up' reactions do you mean like a fever? I don't get fevers but my temp has been spiking up to 'normal' people zone making me feel feverish since I switched from the Selenomethionine to the Selenite form. I just wonder if it's doing something antiviral in my system. Hopefully.

I haven't felt inclined to moo yet or eat hay, though. Should I be watching for those symptoms as well?

Also could you tell me which kind of liquid Molybdnum you are using?

No not a fever in my case. Headache, dizziness. Some folks do experience increased warmness, skin reactions, changes in mood and energy levels. Alterations in sleep. Does sound as if you are reacting if your temp has been going up, it's definitely doing something.

I'm sure in time you'll feel like having a nice hay burger with your daily grass.

I am using Metabolics Ionic Molybdenum.

 

[Oliver3]

Molybdenum has stopped your reflux???

Part of the B12 deficiency group online insists on molybdenum and all other co factors to get the mineral wheel going.
What what I understand, they've had genuine full on remission.
I'm scared to take molybdenum tho

 

[Oliver3]

This "you are what you eat" perspective of health is fine for articles in glossy lifestyle magazines, but such notions are not medical science. Disease has very complex mechanisms, which we are only beginning to understand.

Nutrition is like putting petrol in the tank, replenishing the engine oil, and refilling the windscreen wiper fluid. All necessary things; but when your engine blows a gasket and needs major repair, refilling the windscreen fluid is not going to get to fix the problem!





I switched to sodium selenite during my testing of the B12 oils in order to follow Greg's protocol.

I later switched back to my usual selenomethionine or methylselenocysteine, as these have much better oral bioavailability (near 100% absorption, whereas selenite or selenate are only 50% absorbed).

What if it is just that simple tho