Feeling worse earthing

[outdamnspot]

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but are there instances where parasympathetic activation might actually be undesirable? For example, when I am in a (chronic) sympathetic state, issues like standing for longer periods or being able to fast become less bothersome, whereas triggering a parasympathetic state tends to make me feel calmer but worse in certain ways (more off-balance, dizzier etc.). I know stimulants are actually *prescribed* for POTS sometimes, and coffee does tend to help mine. Yet, I did mention in another post that I get 'crashed' (more brain-fogged, defeated, malaised etc.) and feel worse off from things like probiotics, garlic etc. and I would presume this is related more to immune-activation or die-off. So I wonder if the Earthing is having some inherent undesirable effect (presuming that there aren't other issues related to the actual connection etc.), or if it's related to enhanced immune activity. I very much doubt it's placebo because I can shift from a sympathetic to parasympathetic state very quickly after putting on the band.

 

[L'engle]

@outdamnspot There are just so many unknowns! I could see it having either a positive or negative effect. Most treatments PWME try seem to react very differently for each person so it gets really unpredictable. It sounds like it may be lowering your blood pressure or causing vasodilation if it makes standing more difficult but you are calmer. From my experience I would ease off it and see if it feels like a relief or if you feel worse going back to baseline. It can be hard to tell what is going on but if it is putting some kind of stress on your system it's best to be careful.

Do you have a blood pressure monitor and thermometer?

 

[outdamnspot]

@outdamnspot There are just so many unknowns! I could see it having either a positive or negative effect. Most treatments PWME try seem to react very differently for each person so it gets really unpredictable. It sounds like it may be lowering your blood pressure or causing vasodilation if it makes standing more difficult but you are calmer. From my experience I would ease off it and see if it feels like a relief or if you feel worse going back to baseline. It can be hard to tell what is going on but if it is putting some kind of stress on your system it's best to be careful.

Do you have a blood pressure monitor and thermometer?

I do tend to feel a little bit better and more alert once I take the band off. But if it is causing 'detox' (rather than just worsening my symptoms), then that would occur regardless, I suppose. The only way to know would be to keep on with it for another week or so, since earthing sites claim it can take up to 2 weeks to feel better (and I was reading from one woman earlier who felt unwell for 3 weeks).

Unfortunately, I don't have a BPM, but I do have a theromometer; how would the thermometer help?

 

[L'engle]

@outdamnspot A thermometer could give you more information about how it is affecting you. Might be worth taking a few measurements.

There's a lot of debate about the 'detox' idea. I've lost patience with waiting out treatments that made me feel worse as they mostly seemed to continue that way but everyone has their own way of doing things. I hope you start to feel better soon.

 

[moblet]

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but are there instances where parasympathetic activation might actually be undesirable?

That's not at all a stupid question, and the short answer is yes. The sympathetic is associated with activity and the parasympathetic is associated with rest. The classic "fight or flight" scenario is one where a successful sympathetic activation is essential to survival, and if parasympathetic activation was to occur instead (or just insufficient sympathetic activation) one would neither fight nor fly and suffer the consequences. On a more pedestrian level the sympathetic nervous system is what we rely on to get stuff done, just as we rely on the parasympathetic to rest and heal sufficiently.

The medical profession has never paid much attention to the sympathetic/parasympathetic nervous systems, especially in Australia where most doctors have never even heard of them despite them being basic concepts taught to biologists, so from a medical perspective we don't have much of a picture of what role they're playing in people in our condition. Along with that comes a lack of awareness of how medications influence these systems (pharmacists here are taught about these systems but they're not the ones diagnosing and prescribing). Biologists are taught that the parasympathetic provides for, among other things, rest and healing, so it's reasonable to suspect that any organism that is failing to achieve decent parasympathetic activation is probably not achieving the amount of rest and healing required for decent function. I know that my own body has long had significant problems regulating these systems, for years before my health collapsed, and from what I've learned about others' experiences it seems that at least a significant minority of people in the CFS bucket have similar problems one way or the other.

It's sounding to me like your body may not have been able to activate the parasympathetic sufficiently all on its own and that earthing has suddenly delivered a fresh capability, a capability that may be sustained or may seem to evaporate in the weeks or months ahead. If your body hasn't been adequately parasympathetic for a very long time then it's naturally going to have a backlog of rest and healing to do, so when it finally goes parasympathetic it's going to go all-in. I've experienced this many times with successful interventions; each time the deeply parasympathetic state has worn off in days or weeks but left me with a slightly better baseline in terms of regulation.

Something I've noticed in myself and in some others too is that going parasympathetic can make particular symptoms more apparent, especially the kinds of symptoms you're reporting. I and others have found that it's possible to "run away" from those symptoms by pushing oneself back into activity and avoiding ever going parasympathetic again (with whatever negative consequences for one's general health), but in order to address and ultimately eliminate them it's necessary to embrace the parasympathetic state and engage with the symptoms both in terms of treatment and self-management. I can give you some pointers on treatment and self-management if your symptoms persist but for now I think the best thing for you to do is to roll with it - assume that it won't last forever (or even for very long), bank the rest and healing, and then see what presents when the deep parasympathetic state begins to wear off.

 

[outdamnspot]

It's sounding to me like your body may not have been able to activate the parasympathetic sufficiently all on its own and that earthing has suddenly delivered a fresh capability, a capability that may be sustained or may seem to evaporate in the weeks or months ahead. If your body hasn't been adequately parasympathetic for a very long time then it's naturally going to have a backlog of rest and healing to do, so when it finally goes parasympathetic it's going to go all-in. I've experienced this many times with successful interventions; each time the deeply parasympathetic state has worn off in days or weeks but left me with a slightly better baseline in terms of regulation.

Something I've noticed in myself and in some others too is that going parasympathetic can make particular symptoms more apparent, especially the kinds of symptoms you're reporting. I and others have found that it's possible to "run away" from those symptoms by pushing oneself back into activity and avoiding ever going parasympathetic again (with whatever negative consequences for one's general health), but in order to address and ultimately eliminate them it's necessary to embrace the parasympathetic state and engage with the symptoms both in terms of treatment and self-management. I can give you some pointers on treatment and self-management if your symptoms persist but for now I think the best thing for you to do is to roll with it - assume that it won't last forever (or even for very long), bank the rest and healing, and then see what presents when the deep parasympathetic state begins to wear off.

This makes sense. My body has been stuck in a chronic sympathetic state for a long time now. What I was implying is that I thought maybe my body was using a sympathetic state to kind of counteract certain symptoms (the POTS etc.), and that switching to a parasympathetic state would worsen all those issues, which is what seems to happen when I try to ground myself. When I try to earth, I can sleep for almost 12 hours, which I guess is my body trying to get some kind of rest. I'll give it some more time, though, as you suggest, and see if things even out eventually ..

Is it also possible that 'detoxing' or 'herxing' or whatever could be exacerbating certain symptoms? I can deal with feeling crappy, but the stuff that always worries me are the neurological issues (feeling off-balance or like I'm going to fall over etc). I wasn't sure if that was also related to the para/sympathetic system, but my walking is a lot worse since earthing ..

 

[outdamnspot]

, so when it finally goes parasympathetic it's going to go all-in. I've experienced this many times with successful interventions; each time the deeply parasympathetic state has worn off in days or weeks but left me with a slightly better baseline in terms of regulation.

Also, do you have POTS and did 'going all-in parasympathetic' worsen it?

 

[moblet]

Activating the sympathetic to compensate for POTS makes a lot of sense, which is one nutshell in the whole peanut butter factory of pushing oneself through one's symptoms in order to get anything done in life.

I don't usually have straight POTS but I do have some kind of tachycardia issue going on that seems connected with structural issues in my thoracic spine. My tachycardia can get triggered by getting upright but is more often triggered by exerting with my arms or occurs spontaneously, usually when lying down. In years past this was sometimes accompanied by a sympathetic episode but such is rare these days. Usually my heart rate isn't what it should be (mostly too high) and I often feel my heart beating strangely (e.g. beating like it's under load when I'm doing nothing), but then sometimes it all seems normal.

I also experience occasional episodes that sound very similar to what you're describing, which are the only times I'll routinely spend much more time in bed than out of it. They last 2-6 weeks and are associated with a particular pattern of torsional strain around the base of my skull. I've long observed occasional correlations between strain affecting the base of my skull and dysfunction in processes regulated by the vagus nerve, which exits the skull through its own dedicated portal in that region, so I figure that these episodes are the result of the vagus nerve being temporarily more compromised than usual. I used to have a constant mucous drip in my lungs that I could "switch off" by applying a particular gentle pattern of torsional force to my skull (something I picked up from the osteopath's table, noticing that when they applied such a pattern of force the drip would stop).

I have constant but variable vertigo for which the apparent cause is irregular motion of the cranio-sacral fluid. It always feels much worse when I'm lying down with my eyes closed than it does when I'm upright with my eyes open. I'm no expert on vertigo but I'm aware that it can occur as a stress response, so if you don't normally experience it then it'll presumably disappear once the shock of the earthing wears off. It's also possible that the vertigo was always there but has been masked by your being chronically sympathetic; whichever it is should soon become apparent.

When my body's gone all-in parasympathetic it's definitely been harder to get and stay upright. It feels to me like my body at those times is unable to get my heart in gear in order to maintain blood pressure properly, so rather than a POTS kind of response it feels more like my body's making no response.

 

[outdamnspot]

It isn't straight vertigo (as in room-spinning) -- more a feeling that I am being pulled down to the ground or am going to fall when I walk. Things that 'crash' my adrenals or lower cortisol (physical activity, Magnesium etc.) tend to bring on that symptom; likewise, I sometimes feel very short of breath (air-hunger I suppose), which the Earthing tends to provoke.

So either it is the shock of earthing, or, as you say, switching to a parasympathetic state is unmasking all those symptoms. However, since Earthing normalizes hormone levels supposedly (including the thyroid), I would hope the ultimate effects (on fatigue, appetite etc.) would be positive. Maybe there will be a lag between this immediate parasympathetic activation and hormone upregulation (since I know my thyroid is low, but I couldn't tolerate treating it), and the benefits may still come with time -- I think I recall reading that thyroid levels were improved after 6 weeks. In some ways, though, while I appreciate feeling calmer, a lot of the 'low cortisol' symptoms are bothersome -- such as the increased hunger, brain fog etc. -- and, while it's probably anxiety, I often feel really weak and frail and like the next stressful thing is going to kill me.

 

[outdamnspot]

K. Sokal and P. Sokal drew blood samples from 6 male and 6 female adults with no history of thyroid disease. A single night of grounding produced a significant decrease of free tri-iodothyronine and an increase of free thyroxin and thyroid-stimulating hormone. The meaning of these results is unclear but suggests an earthing influence on hepatic, hypothalamus, and pituitary relationships with thyroid function.

Wouldn't a decrease in FT3 potentially be undesirable in CFS, especially if RT3 is high?

 

[moblet]

Vertigo doesn't necessarily mean that the room spins, it just means that there's a sensation of movement when there is no movement. I sometimes have a pulled-down-to-the-ground feeling, usually from behind.

Just as medications don't always have the "right" effects on people with complex conditions like CFS, so it may be with earthing. Maybe you have some kind of medically-identifiable neuro-endocrine problem that the earthing is bringing into focus, in which case the earthing will prove to be very helpful from a diagnostic perspective, or maybe earthing has merely disrupted your body's sympathetically-driven equilibrium and now your body is grasping for a new one (which invariably takes time and involves distress of some kind).

I don't seem to have any thyroid issues myself and am pretty ignorant thereof.

In the meantime you may have the power to "choose your poison" by regulating the amount of earthing you do. Given that it's continuing to cause you concern have you been experimenting with the amount of time you spend earthed, or tried a night without it? The parasympathetic is an inherently vulnerable state (in it there's no fighting or flighting) so the feeling that the next stressor will snuff you out isn't surprising.

 

[outdamnspot]

Vertigo doesn't necessarily mean that the room spins, it just means that there's a sensation of movement when there is no movement. I sometimes have a pulled-down-to-the-ground feeling, usually from behind.

Just as medications don't always have the "right" effects on people with complex conditions like CFS, so it may be with earthing. Maybe you have some kind of medically-identifiable neuro-endocrine problem that the earthing is bringing into focus, in which case the earthing will prove to be very helpful from a diagnostic perspective, or maybe earthing has merely disrupted your body's sympathetically-driven equilibrium and now your body is grasping for a new one (which invariably takes time and involves distress of some kind).

I don't seem to have any thyroid issues myself and am pretty ignorant thereof.

In the meantime you may have the power to "choose your poison" by regulating the amount of earthing you do. Given that it's continuing to cause you concern have you been experimenting with the amount of time you spend earthed, or tried a night without it? The parasympathetic is an inherently vulnerable state (in it there's no fighting or flighting) so the feeling that the next stressor will snuff you out isn't surprising.

That makes sense. I know I probably sound overly anxious and analytical, but I have had also no kind of physical or psychological reprieve or uptick since this started; everyday is a new adventure in terms of seeing how I'm going to respond to seemingly benign substances and treatments.

I have stopped Earthing during the day. I tried to go without it last night, but couldn't fall asleep. I guess I just have so little patience anymore and would rather endure more of the negative in the hope of some kind of improvement.

 

[moblet]

Sleep is good.

 

[outdamnspot]

Sleep is good.

Have you heard of difficulty breathing as a 'crash' symptom? I experience it when things make me crash, or when I'm very dehydrated; it's like a pressure in my face/sinus area and my breathing becomes more shallow and strained .. almost as if my body is in shock. The earthing has been provoking it, which ruins my sleep. It's very frustrating, because my hope was to just use it at night so I could sleep through any side-effects.

 

[moblet]

I can think of four different mechanisms that could cause breathing difficulties:
1. Inflammation of the lungs and/or respiratory tract (e.g. due to allergy).
2. Bronchospasm, where the muscles around the respiratory tract act to constrict it (e.g. asthma that responds to salbutamol).
3. Malfunction/misfiring of the muscles that enact breathing.
4. Tightness in connective tissues (esp fasciae) in the upper torso.

I have at times of my life experienced all of the above to varying extents. Do you have a sense of which might be in play for you at the moment?

 

[outdamnspot]

I can think of four different mechanisms that could cause breathing difficulties:
1. Inflammation of the lungs and/or respiratory tract (e.g. due to allergy).
2. Bronchospasm, where the muscles around the respiratory tract act to constrict it (e.g. asthma that responds to salbutamol).
3. Malfunction/misfiring of the muscles that enact breathing.
4. Tightness in connective tissues (esp fasciae) in the upper torso.

I have at times of my life experienced all of the above to varying extents. Do you have a sense of which might be in play for you at the moment?

I'm not entirely sure which it might be. I just tend to notice it a lot more when I'm in the middle of an adrenal crash, and things like food, salt, water etc. typically relieve it.

 

[outdamnspot]

A lot of the pressure and discomfort originates in the sinus area (though my sinuses aren't congested with mucus etc.), so I don't know if that adds any clues.

 

[moblet]

Ah, sorry, I was assuming the breathing difficulty was in the lungs, not sinuses. Mucous may still be involved - I find that eating, and to a lesser extent drinking, can have an expectorant effect. Might the increased amount of time you spend horizontal and/or with your nose in close proximity to bed linen or blankets while crashed be contributing?

 

[outdamnspot]

Ah, sorry, I was assuming the breathing difficulty was in the lungs, not sinuses. Mucous may still be involved - I find that eating, and to a lesser extent drinking, can have an expectorant effect. Might the increased amount of time you spend horizontal and/or with your nose in close proximity to bed linen or blankets while crashed be contributing?

It seems to be partly sinuses, but my chest also feels heavy, like there's a weight on it, and it can be difficult to inhale satisfactorily. I'm presuming it's not dangerous ..? But the quality of sleep is so terrible. And strangely, I have no trouble with the symptom when my adrenals are doing a little better.

 

[outdamnspot]

Not sure if it would explain the breathing problems, but one other thing I've been wondering is whether Earthing might be accelerating heavy metal detox, specifically copper. My doctor thinks I have a high biounavailable copper issue, and my balance problems and skin problems (dry, peeling etc.) (possibly linked to copper) have become significantly worse as well. It could just be a POTS/adrenal thing, but not sure.