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Fatigue, shortness of breath, etc.

Pyrrhus

Senior Member
Messages
4,172
Location
U.S., Earth
Air hunger is my big problem. I am always looking for possible causes.
That shortness of breath is a air hunger as opposed to being out of breath like panting. ...like you need a large sigh a open the diagram fully. Its common symptom in cfs

Here's one explanation for the air hunger in ME:

Thats excess urination is a funny one. I always called it dumping water. Drinking and urination was 10 minutes after. Just no bloody retention of fluid. I

And a common explanation for this "diabetes insipidus" is hypothalamic dysfunction, since the hypothalamus is responsible for control of vasopressin (also known as anti-diuretic hormone ADH). Vasopressin is a hormone that regulates fluid retention, so a dysfunction in the hypothalamus can cause lack of fluid retention.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1300/J092v01n02_05
(This "diabetes insipidus" has NOTHING to do with regular diabetes!)
 
Messages
18
What if I find as clues in my tests for my condition are the following things:
- High levels of BCAA (Valine and Leucine) - this can cause mental issues as Tryptophan and Tyrosine entry in the brain may be limited. Also these cause Insulin resistance.
- High Ornithine and low Arginine - this may be a reason for breathlessness due to alternations in NO and Arginase. Not sure what to think with the high Ornithine..
- Acidic colon PH and a couple of types of bacteria that may signal dysbiosis. Maybe these bacteria are producing smth wrong, like SCFA (propionic acid, etc..) that is overwhelming the Succinate pathway and altering colon PH?! I am pretty sure I red somewhere that excess propionate increases Succinate and short-circuit the Krebs cycle to Acetyl-CoA, while skipping the steps to aKG. That may be the reason for slightly elevated glutamine, glutamate and Ornithine (these convert to each other but can't enter Krebs maybe..).
- Low plasma saturated acids - this signals starvation. Maybe there is some increased need for Acetyl CoA..

So I think I need to balance somehow the levels of amino acids in plasma and to fix my bacteria issues. Already ordered a probiotic recommended by my naturopath. Also tried a few times very small doses of Arginine. I am talking like 250 mg/day. I feel like I was sleeping more deeply and uninterruptedly and maybe breathlessness improved somewhat. But I was waking up in the morning unable to take deep breath, only breathing very shallow and going into panic mode. After I drink some water and eat it goes away. But thats like 30 mins of nightmare.. I guess either Arginine goes to Glutamate and is making me go nuts or since I sleep deeper and don't wake up to drink water something builds up in my system. More than 6h without water seems insane knowing how I drink a cup every hour for total of like 4 L per day...

Maybe I keep trying with these low doses Arginine, a tiny amount of B1, probiotic, and not sure what else to do..
 

dave11

Senior Member
Messages
158
Air hunger is my worst symptom followed by a heaviness sensation. Wish I could get relief from these symptoms.

One possibility is adrenal fatigue. It can cause air hunger and chronic fatigue. MCAS symptoms sometimes include air hunger and fatigue. Also a possibility is hypoglycemia, or reactive hypoglycemia.
 
Last edited:
Messages
78
Location
SF Bay Area
Thanks Dave. It could be those things but in my case I highly suspect EDS and I think it's causing CFS. Unfortunately I don't think I will ever find relief for these symptoms since there isn't a cure for EDS.
 

BeADocToGoTo1

Senior Member
Messages
536
Hi @st134 , @dave11

Have you had a stool pancreatic elastase test done? If so, what is the level in mcg/mL?
If not, please ask your doctor for one just to rule out EPI ( or even pre-EPI as I call it), as it is an often overlooked problem.

Air hunger I had as a downstream symptom from nutrient deficiencies, which were caused by EPI.

Have you every tried a 'mitochondrial cocktail' with vitamin B1, creatine, carnitine and CoQ10? This is what I took for a few months as a recommendation from a doctor specializing in mitochondrial issues:

● 400 mg of coenzyme CoQ10 per day.

● 100 mg of vitamin B1 per day.

● 5-10 grams of creatine spread over three times in the day.

● 3 grams of L-carnitine spread over three times in the day.
 

Sophiedw

Senior Member
Messages
383
Hi @st134 , @dave11

Have you had a stool pancreatic elastase test done? If so, what is the level in mcg/mL?
If not, please ask your doctor for one just to rule out EPI ( or even pre-EPI as I call it), as it is an often overlooked problem.

Air hunger I had as a downstream symptom from nutrient deficiencies, which were caused by EPI.

Have you every tried a 'mitochondrial cocktail' with vitamin B1, creatine, carnitine and CoQ10? This is what I took for a few months as a recommendation from a doctor specializing in mitochondrial issues:

● 400 mg of coenzyme CoQ10 per day.

● 100 mg of vitamin B1 per day.

● 5-10 grams of creatine spread over three times in the day.

● 3 grams of L-carnitine spread over three times in the day.


Did it improve your air hunger? Or was that a symptom to begin with? Thanks
 

xploit316

Senior Member
Messages
142
What if I find as clues in my tests for my condition are the following things:
- High levels of BCAA (Valine and Leucine) - this can cause mental issues as Tryptophan and Tyrosine entry in the brain may be limited. Also these cause Insulin resistance.
- High Ornithine and low Arginine - this may be a reason for breathlessness due to alternations in NO and Arginase. Not sure what to think with the high Ornithine..
- Acidic colon PH and a couple of types of bacteria that may signal dysbiosis. Maybe these bacteria are producing smth wrong, like SCFA (propionic acid, etc..) that is overwhelming the Succinate pathway and altering colon PH?! I am pretty sure I red somewhere that excess propionate increases Succinate and short-circuit the Krebs cycle to Acetyl-CoA, while skipping the steps to aKG. That may be the reason for slightly elevated glutamine, glutamate and Ornithine (these convert to each other but can't enter Krebs maybe..).
- Low plasma saturated acids - this signals starvation. Maybe there is some increased need for Acetyl CoA..

So I think I need to balance somehow the levels of amino acids in plasma and to fix my bacteria issues. Already ordered a probiotic recommended by my naturopath. Also tried a few times very small doses of Arginine. I am talking like 250 mg/day. I feel like I was sleeping more deeply and uninterruptedly and maybe breathlessness improved somewhat. But I was waking up in the morning unable to take deep breath, only breathing very shallow and going into panic mode. After I drink some water and eat it goes away. But thats like 30 mins of nightmare.. I guess either Arginine goes to Glutamate and is making me go nuts or since I sleep deeper and don't wake up to drink water something builds up in my system. More than 6h without water seems insane knowing how I drink a cup every hour for total of like 4 L per day...

Maybe I keep trying with these low doses Arginine, a tiny amount of B1, probiotic, and not sure what else to do..

@st134 Any updates on your health since the last post above?
 
Messages
24
I’m also curious for an update, and have more to contribute.

Panic attacks and throat constriction, without anxiety, reminds me of high histamine. I had a panic attack once, likely from low serotonin, and it did not have throat constriction. So to me that sounds like an allergy

I once found this article claiming that SALT is a natural antihistamine: https://www.watercures.org/natural-antihistamine.html

I personally have experienced severe shortness of breath and rapid breathing that seemed to be hyponatremia / low sodium. This appears to be a chronic issue for me, and today I’m getting a bottle of 1g salt tablets from Amazon to do some experimenting. I also have chronic high heart rate, which also often spikes after eating, and suspect/hope it’s related to sodium because I’ve tried so many other things with little effect.

I also have low cortisol. Adrenal cortex extract turned out to be the BEST supplement in my arsenal, and I’ve been a mad scientist who has self-tested about 200 supplements. Cardiovascular Research has a 350mg capsule that I went for after working my way up a with 50mg capsule and realizing the more I took, the more it worked. It worked so well I started over-producing cortisol at one point in the evening. Furthermore, it’s the ONE supplement that has helped me fall back asleep after 3am awakenings (waking up after 3-4h of sleep).

I’m currently modulating my cortisol curve with ashwaghanda and skullcap for general stress support, and holy basil for when cortisol is high. Cortex seems best to take in morning, and/or maybe with lunch, and/or when waking up in the middle of the night. Taking it with dinner + having a stressful evening sent me into high cortisol where I was super energized, but couldn’t get to sleep for hours. That said, sometimes when I notice low cortisol symptoms in the evening, cortex seems to help; but I’m testing 50-150mg in evening now, not 350mg.

I have also endured low dopamine and low serotonin. Both seem to be extraordinarily improved with cortex, through dopamine a bit less than serotonin. The safest dopamine supplements in order are: DLPA, tyrosine, mucuna (however the most potent begins with mucuna and works backwards through those three). Cortex + mucuna at 3am has been a winning combo. Even when I sleep bad, dopamine supplements make me feel 80-90% normal.

I don’t remember what HVA etc is off the top of my head, but if it indicates low dopamine production that can point to gene mutations and/or cofactor deficiencies, which could point you in new directions. Iron is needed I think? And BH4.

BH4 relates to nitric oxide and the urea cycle. I personally had low ornithine so had to study this. The urea cycle (ornithine, citrulline, arginine) deals mainly with ammonia. High ammonia symptoms can be extremely debilitating! I’m prone to high ammonia because of the CBS gene mutation. Which also made me have sulfur sensitivity, whose symptoms are even more debilitating! Molybdenum was the solution for sulfur symptoms. Yucca and ceylon cinnamon (not normal store cinnamon) can help with high ammonia. Though I don’t think I’ve figured out my situation yet as I’m actually awake after drinking soda, which has the ingredient “caramel coloring,” which is a morbid synthetic flavoring made from ammonia and sulfur! Anyway, getting your urea cycle in order will be important for ammonia (and preventing debilitating symptoms), BH4 (assisting neurotransmitters), and nitric oxide. There’s a lot going on with this one cluster.

As always, I recommend the Nutrigenomics page on heartfixer.com. Even if you don’t know your genes, you can search certain terms like “nitric oxide” to understand how the body’s processing things, and look up pathway images such as the urea cycle to see how everything flows. The urea cycle in particular runs through ornithine, arginine, and citrulline in a loop cycle, so if something is deficient or blocked up there, I think that’s a pretty important area to focus.

And of course, urea leads to urination. There could be something related there. However, I have made some distinct correlations with my own ruination and sense of bladder fullness. A very full feeling, even urgent or “burning-ish” indicates high potassium. I know, because at one point I was testing 1-5g. (Yes, a lot of 100mg tablets.! Whereas when my bladder is clearly full but feels fine like I can hold it without burning/sensitivity, that’s adequate sodium.

From my perspective, sodium is a common denominator.

This article asserts that normal blood sodium levels do not correlate to body stores/needs. https://drinklmnt.com/blogs/health/normal-sodium-levels

As for “normal levels,” this doctor suggests sodium must be above 141 or it’s deficient.