Experiences with Succinic Acid ( Amber Acid )

[Wishful]

My brain is presently not up to the task of reading complex biochemistry papers, but in the experiments using succinate with radiocarbon atoms, is is possible that the succinate is being broken down elsewhere in the body and the fragments (with the C13) are being attached to molecules that do get transported into the mitochondria? Even if some of those atoms come out again in metabolites downstream of the succinate step in mitochondria, that doesn't necessarily prove that the atoms entered as part of complete succinate molecules.

 

[Wishful]

What's the energy density of hydrogen?
...It's probably the most energy dense thing I'm aware of, at >120-140kJ per g.
...
Succinic acid is C4H6O4

That's kind of misleading. Doesn't succinate only give up two hydrogen atoms when converting to fumarate? Glucose gives up all 12. The value as a fuel for ATP isn't that simple, but saying that hydrogen is great and succinate has 6H implies more than might be the reality of the situation.

 

[Reading_Steiner]

Nikola Tesla is definitely someone I’ve enjoyed trying to understand. I actually have hard-copies of all his .. available.. written works, patents.

I think I have a reasonable grip on many of his ideas. Biefeld-Brown, Townsend have done some interesting work around this as well.

Funnily enough, on the “mad scientist” topic, there are some outstanding projects up my sleeve around this from my electronics engineering focused days that I intend to get back to one day. Electrogravitics, using the resonance + capacitance of the Earth for large scale applications and transmission purposes still seems like quite a fun area to apply myself again one day.

Yes, my friend keeps telling me all about it, or if its not that its quantum physics something or another, even with Chronic Fatigue Boosted Brain ™ I feel my intelligence is not quite up to the task, even so thats a large part of the sort of thing I like. Sent your paper to him but he has minimal experience in biology topics, I think he would like to live your sort of lifestyle but he is stuck in the military at the moment.

I'm gonna continue to observe the debate about the succinic acid and whether it can get into the mitochondria from the cytosol, its turned out to be an interesting discussion point. I just started taking the full experimental treatment so that's going to be my full time job for the next week+.

 

[Judee]

I just started taking the full experimental treatment so that's going to be my full time job for the next week+.

Do you mean Joshua's protocol? Please let us know how it goes.

 

[joshua.leisk]

I'm sorry to say that these studies don't support your argument, as both Hip and I have been carefully trying to explain.

The first paper you cited is an in vitro study which used succinic acid concentrations up to 25mM. Hip previously calculated the approximate succinic acid dose required to reach such concentrations on page 1 of this thread:


If 6mM concentration requires 57,000mg doses of succinic acid, then the 25mM concentration used in the paper you cited would require 237,500mg doses. These doses are thousands of times higher than the doses used in your protocol, and far higher than any safe dose that a person could take.

Many compounds can overwhelm natural balance and enter cells when applied at unnaturally high concentrations in a petri dish. However, those studies cannot be assumed to apply to doses that are 4 orders of magnitude lower.

Multiple studies in humans show that the typical range of succinic acid in the blood is between 2uM and 20uM, which is nowhere near the up to 25,000uM concentrations used in the study you cited. This is noted in your second link above.



Second, your citations about the SLC-13 transporter also disagree with your claims. As we've been explaining, the transporters you're citing are used for moving succinate out of the mitochondria, not into them.

The second link you provided has a diagram and a section which explains this:


and


The SLC13 transporter transports succinate out of the cell, not into the cell. The dicarboxylic acid translocator transports succinate out of the mitochondria, not into the mitochondria. This is information I'm taking from the exact citations you provided above.



We've been patiently reading your writings, your linked studies, and your citations in multiple threads and responding with valid concerns. At this point even your own citations are not supporting your claims, as I've outlined above. I hope that others reading this thread can take the time to read some of the careful critiques of the claims being made here.

SLC25A10 is for the mitochondrial transport
SLC13 is for the other

The transporters demonstrably exist for both membranes. We also don’t want “elevated” succinate levels, just normalised. Studies showing how much it takes to elevate intracellular levels is also pointless when it gets rapidly metabolised in the mitochondrial reactions. If you’re putting SO much into the serum that the intracellular levels are significantly elevated, which was what that study showed, you’d actually be inducing CFS via anaplerosis.

The funny part is that if you had read my later papers, you’d also realise the succinate isn’t used anymore except for specific emergency intervention tasks and some things I'll be talking about later.

 

[joshua.leisk]

BTW, as per the first paper -

59. Cascarano J, Ades I, O'Connor J. Hypoxia: A succinate-fumarate electron shuttle between peripheral cells and lung. Journal of Experimental Zoology. 1976;198(2):149-153. doi:10.1002/jez.1401980204

the other normal way succinate can enter the mitochondrial cycle is first via the lungs and returned as fumarate -

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/978165/

 

[wastwater]

My eye gene PITX2 enhances slc13a3 (low expression)and genecard seems to suggest succinic acid maybe a treatment
Thinking of trying it
https://www.genecards.org/cgi-bin/carddisp.pl?gene=SLC13A3
sodium channels are involved with pain perception I believe and heart and seizures

 

[GlassCannonLife]

Has anyone else tried taking this? I saw there's a thread from 2017 talking about Ron Davis observing low succinate in PWME.

I tried the Josh protocol for 3 months recently and didn't get any benefit from it, but I happened to have purchased some succinic acid earlier on as it was in an older version of the protocol plan.

I've tried taking around 5 mg of the succinic acid at a time and I get a clear boost in mental clarity and feel much less ill overall from it within 15 or 20 min. The effect seems to last for around an hour or two before slowly dropping off and potentially causing a little rebound. It's hard to tell for sure as the benefit might just accentuate how unpleasant my "baseline" feeling is at the time. It does make me feel a lot more "normal" though.

I haven't played with higher dosages as I don't want to overdo anything and Josh had mentioned that it can bypass ROS limits and cause a lot of PEM. Not sure if this is true for everyone or not.


Interestingly, I recently bought some antiviral nose spray as our toddler constantly gets us sick - Vick's First Defence. It has some zinc and a few other things, but most notably, it has a small amount of succinate and succinic acid.. I can taste the same flavour as the succinic acid tablets in the back of my sinus after I take some, and it seems to give me a mild boost in energy/well-being. I wonder if intranasal dosing of this is more useful? I don't seem to have as much rebound with the spray (still hard to tell if this is really a thing or not though), but it might also be because the dose is so low.. Would be cool to see if others also find it helpful - maybe someone could grab some of the Vick's spray and give it a try? I think they at least sell it in the UK.

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

I have never had any reaction to succinic acid no matter what does I have taken and my urine levels are very high which may indicate I don't use it properly or I have high amounts of it?!

Josh thinks that Herpesviridae are not responsible for my condition.

 

[GlassCannonLife]

I have never had any reaction to succinic acid no matter what does I have taken and my urine levels are very high which may indicate I don't use it properly or I have high amounts of it?!

Josh thinks that Herpesviridae are not responsible for my condition.

That's interesting, I wonder how many different mechanisms there actually are for this illness!

 

[Wishful]

I wonder how many different mechanisms there actually are for this illness!

Lots and lots and lots and lots.

There are probably several factors which affect the core dysfunction in ME, and each of those has multiple factors which affect them, which in turn have multiple factors which affect them, and on it goes. Then too, we each have individual variances in sensitivities to factors and reactions to the core dysfunction. One person has a robust t-cell system, and one has a weak one, so they respond differently to environmental factors. One person has epigenetic variances that makes them use a given chemical more effectively, so they report that 'Supplement x works great for ME!', while someone without that variant tries it and it has no effect. ME might have a simple core dysfunction, but the overall symptoms and responses will vary widely due to all those other individual factors.

 

[wastwater]

From my own gene set (PITX2) I’ve noted three things as maybe significant
Pyruvate dehydrogenase
Sodium channels
Immune complement deficiency (factor I)

 

[GlassCannonLife]

@Hip have you ever tried succinate? You're in the UK and have tried most things so I thought I'd ask in case you've used the vicks nose spray, or just tried succinic acid by itself

 

[Hip]

@Hip have you ever tried succinate? You're in the UK and have tried most things so I thought I'd ask in case you've used the vicks nose spray, or just tried succinic acid by itself

That's one that I have not tried.

 

[BrightCandle]

I have been using it off and on with Joshua's v3.2 HASD. It removes the glucose hunger I get for a period. The effect is pretty mild.

 

[GlassCannonLife]

Just thought I'd update this saying I think the succinate still gives me worse PEM even at those low dosages.

I've stopped it for a few days now. I have managed to resolve a little of the inflammation with strict pacing but had an appointment today that has floored me again.. Sadly no free energy for me here it seems.