Excessive Vein Dilation?

[pattismith]

Yes! The redness starts with my fingertips and creeps upwards to my fingers and then palm. It's more visible in the fingers. It happens so quickly that I can watch it happen over the course of 10-30 seconds. My fingers and palm also take on a mottled appearance.

Yes. It just takes a few seconds.

Is this another sign of vascular autonomic neuropathy?

Possibly.
it looks like Erythromelalgia.
Erythomelalgia is a dilation of small arteries in the skin associated with redness and burning sensation.

https://www.msdmanuals.com/home/hea...s/peripheral-arterial-disease/erythromelalgia

An Erythromelalgia-like syndrome is known in Small Fiber Neuropathy, and Small Fiber Neuropathy is a cause of autonomic vascular disorders, so some erythromelalgia subtype could be linked to SFN. Do you have SFN Pat?

One test used for diagnosis is the color going from red to pale with elevation of the feet or hands:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erythromelalgia#Diagnosis
Another test that can be done is to have the patient elevate their legs, and note the reversal (from red to pale) in skin color.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

I've also got extensive thyroid testing in the past and it's always come back normal.

When you say "extensive testing", I'm assuming that means that you didn;t let the Dr get away with the usual T3 and TSH tests oly, right?

And than you for the " ....thank you ... " re the other pssibilities I suggested. Very thoughty, and made me smile happily !!!

a butterfly needle, child size is the easiest and least painful way to get blood from us.

I posted about this about a month ago, possibly to you but I can;t remember.

Along with requesting a baby needle for blood draws, it's helps to know what they lool like. On two occasions the phlebotomist, assuming I wouldn;t know the difference, came back with a standrad adult needle that would have cause extensive pain and damage.

The baby needles are called "Baby Butterfly" needles, and unlike the usual green and yellow adult needle, it's set in to a baby-blue, sort of butterfly shaped, housing.

 

[Jwarrior77]

@Jwarrior77
It seems to me that your feet are red, are they?
When your hands are down and your are standing, are the palms red? With yellow spots?

Yes sometimes my feet get really red but if the the temperature is cool they will turn white. The palms of my hands get really red and mottled with white spots. Here's pics I found.

 

[lenora]

Rufous....I reread what you wrote and I have to say that my fingerprints are gone, and have been for a long time. I'm older than you, so that probably accounts for it. Have you had problems with really cold hands...to the point of having to wear gloves? Mine don't turn white (at least thankful for that) and I know that again it's fairly common in older people.

As far as the red spots are concerned (and thank-you Cataleya for counting them!), they'll turn brown with time and I can cover them with a good make-up I've found, if I feel so inclined. Since Rod thinks they're freckles, why bother?

A Supervisor, many years ago, told me always to ask for the smallest Butterfly needle they have, as you say....a Baby Butterfly and yes, they are blue. I have to say they have been miracle workers for me and it makes a big difference when you're having 6 or more blood draws per day. They can also be used as a port for IV use. Just make certain it's well taped down and an ace bandage is wrapped around it...the needles are very, very short and can easily slip out.

A lot of us, and older women, have trouble with their veins....this is quite common. I have had trouble in getting them and, as you say, they try to stick with something for a horse. I don't let them near me any longer unless they approach with a Baby Butterfly needle. You may have to request them the first time...as a lot of techs don't regularly carry them. Also, they'll try to scare you by saying they can't get enough blood out of you using them...that's not true in the least. As a matter of fact, it's also easier on them. The reason they're not regularly carried is because they cost more than the average needle. Go figure!! A tech that I had last time I was in the hospital told me that one. I just want to stay home, heal as well as possible and try to return to some semblance of normalcy. Yours, Lenora.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

Does anyone else have veins that seem to excessively dilate for no reason? I have POTS / Dysautonomia so I know it's related to this. They get dilated when exposed to heat, eating different foods, and even emotional upset or stress.

To clarify, mine are dilated 24/7, but some type of acute condition sets in where they inflame more, dilate more and feel really uncomfortable until it lessons again. Like just washing this hand- water is irritating.

COLLAGEN- breakdown may be playing a role. While out Binging about the anatomy of veins....collagen type I, II and III is there involved in all the tissues and layers.

Here is some interesting discussion from the Vanity Brigade (stop. those wrinkles now!).

https://www.shiseido.co.jp/collagenlabo/en/know/lifestyle/

My lymph is similarly- dilated. At least in places it is... lymph is pooling and not flowing properly and stagnent and harbors crap that makes me ill if it moves (acupuncture, massage, walk, play).

 

[L'engle]

Mine look like that. Never knew if it was normal or not.

 

[L'engle]

Along with requesting a baby needle for blood draws, it's helps to know what they lool like. On two occasions the phlebotomist, assuming I wouldn;t know the difference, came back with a standrad adult needle that would have cause extensive pain and damage.

The baby needles are called "Baby Butterfly" needles, and unlike the usual green and yellow adult needle, it's set in to a baby-blue, sort of butterfly shaped, housing.

Good to know.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

If I'm remembering right, and there's no telling, missing fingernail moons are associated with issues with your thyroid or pituitary gland, sometimes iron deficiency, and possibly B-12 deficiency. It's also been associated with adrenal insufficiency, but then what hasn't.

I have never had moons.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

Yes, but you forgot the discussion on Anxiety and have I tried meditation......

!!!

Also, " ....you need more exercise ...", and " ... a lot of this is just stress...".

 

[pattismith]

Your hand is sister to mine

I noticed this phenomenon for some time in heat, but couldn't say if it was normal or not.
I also have probable Small Fiber Neuropathy with autonomic involvement and score zero at the finger wrinkling test, so I tend to think the phenomenon has a link to autonomic SFN.

In wikipedia at Erythromelalgia: "Common triggers for daytime episodes are exertion, heating of the affected extremities, and alcohol or caffeine consumption, and any pressure applied to the limbs"

Do your fingers wrinkle in hot water?

Yes sometimes my feet get really red but if the the temperature is cool they will turn white. The palms of my hands get really red and mottled with white spots. Here's pics I found. View attachment 37333

 

[Rufous McKinney]

Have you had problems with really cold hands...to the point of having to wear gloves?

I don't have the cold hands and feet...my husband sure does. Blamed on frostbite as a child. Very poor extremity circulation (he does not have ME).

The Blotchy Look: I have that.

 

[wigglethemouse]

What happens then when you raise your hand up to the sky? Does your red palm turn quickly pale (it takes 1 or 2 min ?

It turns pale within 1-2 mins. I have confirmed very positive SFN with skin biopsy.

 

[wigglethemouse]

In wikipedia at Erythromelalgia: "Common triggers for daytime episodes are exertion, heating of the affected extremities, and alcohol or caffeine consumption, and any pressure applied to the limbs"

Could it be more like palmar erythema - which has many causes, some of which are autoimmune. Wikipedia (very poor description) implicates Nitric Oxide.....

There is a good matching picture of the palms here
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/320593#overview

 

[pattismith]

@wigglethemouse do you have wrinkles in your fingers in hot water?

Could it be more like palmar erythema - which has many causes, some of which are autoimmune. Wikipedia (very poor description) implicates Nitric Oxide.....

There is a good matching picture of the palms here
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/320593#overview

Yes it looks like what we suffer, but I cannot find anywhere that plantar/palmar erythema disappear when you raise your feet/hands, which is a criterion for erythromelalgia.
Nor I cannot find anywhere that plantar/palmar erythema is triggered by heat like erythromelalgia, nor I cannot find that plantar/palmar erythema is associated with burning pain, nor I cannot find any association between plantar/palmar erythema and SFN...

On the other hand, I found an article hypothesis saying plantar/palmar erythema is the first step to full erythromelalgia, which makes sense to me.

It's likely that ME/CFS people here with plantar/palmar erythema and criterion for erythromelalgia also have autonomic SFN, but it's my only speculation!
It would be interesting to look if there is any correlation between this plantar/palmar erythema/erythromelalgia like and Finger Wrinkling Test to see if we find correlation...
Finger Wrinkling Test correlates with autonomic SFN so we could have maybe an idea...

 

[PatJ]

Erythomelalgia is a dilation of small arteries in the skin associated with redness and burning sensation.

'Spinal cord disorders' is listed as a possible cause of Erythomelalgia. I think my case is complicated by a cervical spinal cord injury, due to transverse myelitis, when I was 19.

I get a burning sensation in my right leg sometimes, mainly in the foot and calf, but my right leg was also affected by the spinal cord injury. I don't have regular temperature or pinprick sensation in that leg, and I get what is probably blood pooling in that leg. The burning sensation isn't related to heat, it seems to be from low blood pressure and/or blood pooling. I don't remember any burning in that leg before ME/CFS but it has been so long since the spinal cord injury (I'm 48 now), and my memory is fuzzy.

Do you have SFN Pat?

I've never been tested for it. Looking at the Wikipedia page for SFN I definitely match many of the symptoms, but I know that some of them are related to my spinal cord injury such as not being able to feel pinprick sensation or temperature in my right leg.

 

[Jwarrior77]

When you say "extensive testing", I'm assuming that means that you didn;t let the Dr get away with the usual T3 and TSH tests oly, right?

And than you for the " ....thank you ... " re the other pssibilities I suggested. Very thoughty, and made me smile happily !!!

I believe so. I had T4 tested couple times along with a bunch of other tests relating to hormones and thyroid function. My endocrinologist did the tests instead of primary.

And no problem I'm always willing to learn more and take advice from people

 

[Jwarrior77]

@pattismith I looked into erythromelalgia before and even though it's similar, I don't believe this is quite the same. My hands get very hot with the blood pooling but they don't burn as in erythromelalgia. I also believe erythromelalgia is linked to Raynaud's but I'm not so sure. It's funny you mention the fingertip wrinkling test as my fingers wrinkle extremely easily now when exposed to water. Just handling something wet can cause them to wrinkle up.

@PatJ Over the years I've also injured my neck. In fact I believe I got this illness after mistakingly going to the chiropractor for neck manipulations and getting some sort of virus right after. I believe it's why I rapidly declined instead of gradual like other suffers. I recently got a Digital Motion X-ray on my neck and head and it showed severe C1 instability along with instability at many other points in my neck. I believe my vagus nerves are badly damaged right where C1 lies. I'm supposed to get the full report tomorrow. I highly recommend if anyone suspects neck issues to get a DMX if there is one in your area.

 

[lenora]

'Spinal cord disorders' is listed as a possible cause of Erythomelalgia. I think my case is complicated by a cervical spinal cord injury, due to transverse myelitis, when I was 19.

I get a burning sensation in my right leg sometimes, mainly in the foot and calf, but my right leg was also affected by the spinal cord injury. I don't have regular temperature or pinprick sensation in that leg, and I get what is probably blood pooling in that leg. The burning sensation isn't related to heat, it seems to be from low blood pressure and/or blood pooling. I don't remember any burning in that leg before ME/CFS but it has been so long since the spinal cord injury (I'm 48 now), and my memory is fuzzy.



I've never been tested for it. Looking at the Wikipedia page for SFN I definitely match many of the symptoms, but I know that some of them are related to my spinal cord injury such as not being able to feel pinprick sensation or temperature in my right leg.

Pat, do you have burning pain as a result of your neuropathy? That's extremely painful and one of the things that I can't get under control. I didn't realize the you had transverse myelitis, and if you don't have pain you're very fortunate to have escaped it. Mixed in with the pain, I have areas that are numb...aren't nerves amazing? They do so many good things but when they go wrong, watch out!! Of course you can't tell anyone else about being careful b/c the body is a precious thing, but there are plenty of us who have found out the hard way.

I hope that nothing proceeds for you and that you're suffering stops with the damage done and ME itself. That's plenty. Yours, Lenora.

 

[pattismith]

@pattismith I looked into erythromelalgia before and even though it's similar, I don't believe this is quite the same. My hands get very hot with the blood pooling but they don't burn as in erythromelalgia. I also believe erythromelalgia is linked to Raynaud's but I'm not so sure. It's funny you mention the fingertip wrinkling test as my fingers wrinkle extremely easily now when exposed to water. Just handling something wet can cause them to wrinkle up.

Erythromelalgia is not necessarily associated to Raynaud. I tend to think we have something close to ErythroM, with a neuropathic nature.
It's interesting your fingers wrinkle fine, it means that damaged sympathetic nerve fibers in autonomic SFN are not the same nerve fibers involved in your red palms/feet...

'Spinal cord disorders' is listed as a possible cause of Erythomelalgia. I think my case is complicated by a cervical spinal cord injury, due to transverse myelitis, when I was 19.

I get a burning sensation in my right leg sometimes, mainly in the foot and calf, but my right leg was also affected by the spinal cord injury. I don't have regular temperature or pinprick sensation in that leg, and I get what is probably blood pooling in that leg. The burning sensation isn't related to heat, it seems to be from low blood pressure and/or blood pooling. I don't remember any burning in that leg before ME/CFS but it has been so long since the spinal cord injury (I'm 48 now), and my memory is fuzzy.

.

Sorry to read that you had transverse myelitis Pat, I was not aware of that.
It's clear that any autonomic deficiency can result from a spinal injury...

 

[Hip]

Same here. I had a nurse tell me to stop obsessing over it when I literally just brought it up once as a question. I guess asking for help about what could be going on is discouraged these days.

I think in a situation like this, it can be a good idea to make it clear to the medical professional that you are not worried about the bulging veins (otherwise they may think you are a hypochondriac), but rather are wondering if it offers any clues to what is going on in your body.

The palms of my hands get really red and mottled with white spots.

I developed that exact hand appearance after getting ME/CFS. It varies from day to day though. I suspect it might be due to some blood vessel dilation malfunction.