Dramatic improvement in mental symptoms from melatonin dosed in the DAY

[douglasmich]

Guys I'm in a really bad way. My symptoms have returned with a vengeance.... If only I could maintain the recovery .... The crash back to hell is very bad.... Like a force within me pulls me back....

 

[Oberon]

This is a long shot, but it may be Serotonin related. You will have to do some digging.

Sleep Deprivation may lead to a short-term spike in Serotonin. Melatonin is derived from Trytophan like Serotonin so it's possible supplementing it is reducing your bodies need to convert the former to the latter.

The two combined = a temporary spike in Serotonin.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7536843

 

[douglasmich]

This is a long shot, but it may be Serotonin related. You will have to do some digging.

Sleep Deprivation may lead to a short-term spike in Serotonin. Melatonin is derived from Trytophan like Serotonin so it's possible supplementing it is reducing your bodies need to convert the former to the latter.

The two combined = a temporary spike in Serotonin.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7536843

THats interesting ! but it doesnt explain physical changes to my body. My joint stability improves 30% and i can bend my back easier. It is not pain releif too its physical strengthening.

I thought it was just a neurotransmitter thing, but with physical changes it has to be more. All my problems are from hormone receptor problems so if my hormone receptors normalize every cell in my body starts to recover...

Im going to do this twice a week now... next time il double the melatonin dose. I am still in awe of how profound the recovery was.

 

[HTester]

Essentially if i take 250mcg melatonin in the day and dont sleep, that afternoon i start to feel an improvement in my depression and brainfog. I go to bed with my usual 250mcg melatonin and i wake up the next day feeling DRAMATIC improvement in my symptoms.

This is a 5-year-old thread, and it looks like the OP is no longer on PR, but I'm looking more deeply into the serotinin-melatonin side of the IDO metabolic trap, so I'll try to revive the discussion.

There is an old study that measured melatonin (and cortisol) in female FM and CFS patients and some controls. Difficult to know how the diagnoses would compare to today.

Korszun, A., L. Sackett-Lundeen, E. Papadopoulos, C. Brucksch, L. Masterson, N. C. Engelberg, E. Haus, M. A. Demitrack, and L. Crofford. “Melatonin Levels in Women with Fibromyalgia and Chronic Fatigue Syndrome.” The Journal of Rheumatology 26, no. 12 (December 1999): 2675–80.

They report (as expected) that melatonin is low during the day and builds up over the night starting at 20:00 (8PM). See their Fig. 2 (attached). They conclude there is no reason to supplement melatonin at night.

I cannot vouch for the study, and the figure itself raises questions. Also, there are good points made in this thread about dose levels. But the reason I was attracted to this thread is the OP points to supplementing with melatonin while awake. I think this is provocative in light of the two different isoforms of TPH (the enzyme at the start of the serotonin pathway), only one of which is substrate inhibited. Textbooks say TPH1 dominates in the pineal where melatonin is synthesized, but when in the light cycle was this measured?

What do you think about this?

 

[bensmith]

Might try this, its hell in the day for me but no issues sleep yet. Slightly worried to take it in the day.

 

[HTester]

@bensmith Don't take a night-time dose during the day. Normal plasma melatonin during daylight hours is 10-fold less than in the dark.

 

[bensmith]

@HTester what dose do you think?

 

[HTester]

I've really no idea, but it seems prudent to start far below the typical night-time dose.

 

[roller]

may be wrong what i remember
... that melatonin increases until around 11 pm, and then
rapidly decreases from midnight on (or even earlier).

there is no "high melatonin because its dark".
the melatonin push may only last a very few hours in the dark.
perhaps

The nightly melatonin surge is followed by a surge in prolactin.

A lack of light is a trigger for the pineal gland to increase the level of melatonin.
Production of melatonin by the pineal gland is inhibited by light to the retina

vitex agnus castus (chasteberry) increases endo melatonin secretion and may increase effect of melatonin supplementation

 

[max_yazhbin]

the question is what happens when the body builds up a tolerance? Is it a short-lived effect? I tried melatonin and it interfered with my sleep and when I uped the dosage I became crankier. Funny that I ran this experiment a few years ago and didn't know about the IDO trap or anything like above.

 

[BrightCandle]

I read a paper last year on Melatonin for helping people to get to sleep that showed 300 mcg was the best dose to do that and above and below were less effective. Initially I was a bit groggy on waking and that was often after 3-4 hours but it helped the getting to sleep so well I stuck with it. 2-3 weeks in my sleep was 7-9 hours a night and when I was choosing so at normal human hours. I would fall asleep about 30 minutes after I took it, pill in, brush teeth and get ready, head down and out like a light the moment the wash hits you (it is a feeling of calmness and almost disconnection with the body that I get). On the occasion I can't sleep it leaves me really groggy for several hours, I wouldn't want to do that in the day, I have tried to use it to nap and it does not seem to help there at all.

I started taking it around January and it fixed my sleep pattern completely and was my first improvement step from very severe, I think it is probably responsible for that initial improvement and getting my sleep pattern fixed has been nice in general and I seem to get some refreshment from sleep I didn't before.

My evening mix is (DoNotAge) Melatonin 300mcg, 5-HTP and magnesium (for restless legs). These three helped with sleep immensely and the Melatonin was the most recent addition. I rate all three but they also all seem to take a few weeks to really have any effect at all. Everything else I had tried I have since dropped as ineffective, but not using any of these three over the past 5 months has always resulted in feeling worse.