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Dr. Neil Nathan's new book -- Toxic: Heal Your Body, from Mold Toxicity, Lyme Disease, MCAS and ...

frozenborderline

Senior Member
Messages
4,405
Has Dr Davis found any Mould in patients?
The levels of mycotoxins needed to cause damage would be very small. I don’t think the urine or blood mycotoxin testing would be definitive.there is epidemiological data to justify trying to figure this out though. Tahoe outbreak being linked to black mold and Cyanobacteria. So I hope that the OMF brings some mycotoxin /environmental illness person on board
 

Dufresne

almost there...
Messages
1,039
Location
Laurentians, Quebec
I just picked up this book and I think it's great. I believe we're not too far from a tipping point where the ideas in this book start to become our basic understanding of what's perpetuating ME, Lyme, MCS, Fibro, MCAS, etc. It really gives me hope.

The fact that mold, toxins, Lyme and chronic infections are the key players in these conditions has been crystal clear to me for sometime now. It's unfortunate "science" has been so slow to catch up with desperate and brave patients and the compassionate clinicians who are slowly figuring out what is working. The idea that Lyme can't persist is total horseshit and it's costing people their lives. I'm so sick of it.

The following video is good for anyone interested in learning about Dr Nathan's recent work.
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
@Dufresne Good to see you and hope you are doing okay. I did not watch the video (but you know my experience with toxic mold and MCAS)! I was curious, what does Dr. Nathan say re: autoimmunity (as a longer-term result of infections, toxic mold exposure, etc) or does he not mention it?
 

fredam7

Senior Member
Messages
153
I have just found out I have black mold in 2 corners of my bedroom.

I had acoustic panels up there, removed them and found this. Pic does not even do it justice. I have cleaned the area, just Auros mold spray, natural anti mold paint and plan to use charcoal for a few days. No wonder I have felt like crap the last few months.


If you can pay experts , do so . Charcoal and spray won't get rid of this. Mine was coming through the paint the depraved landlord put over it , it was inside the walls . I don't know about yours , but that doesn't look good

Run for the hills of you can. If finances allow , run far far away .
 

Dufresne

almost there...
Messages
1,039
Location
Laurentians, Quebec
@Dufresne Good to see you and hope you are doing okay. I did not watch the video (but you know my experience with toxic mold and MCAS)! I was curious, what does Dr. Nathan say re: autoimmunity (as a longer-term result of infections, toxic mold exposure, etc) or does he not mention it?

Hey G-girl, hope all is well.

I'm also interested in autoimmunity, as I think I've developed rheumatoid arthritis. At least I now have a more feminine autoimmune disease to add to my overly masculine ankylosing spondylitis. ;) I did see the thread on the forum about the team at Stanford who believe they've figured out the mechanism behind RA and have treatments in mind that might reverse it. That would be nice.

There's only a single page in Dr Nathan's book addressing autoimmunity. He says it can be triggered by Lyme and mold, and that if the underlying cause is dealt with promptly the autoimmunity often gets shrugged off.; the longer it goes on the tougher it is to rid oneself of. He doesn't give any clue as to what would be considered a short time frame.

Dr Horowitz has been known to use the "Lyme, the great imitator" line when suggesting the autoimmunity he finds in his patients is often not the real deal and, as such, it regularly resolves with successful treatment. He's said patients can have positive ANA's, rheumatoid factor, etc, but that it can go away.
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
Hey G-girl, hope all is well.

All things considered, I am doing pretty well :xeyes:... definitely much better than the last time I talked to you and have done several years of treatments that were very effective for me.

I'm also interested in autoimmunity, as I think I've developed rheumatoid arthritis. At least I now have a more feminine autoimmune disease to add to my overly masculine ankylosing spondylitis. ;)

The way you wrote that made me laugh but I know it is a serious matter... I guess your system needed to balance things out so you have one "feminine" and one "masculine" autoimmune disease ;)

There's only a single page in Dr Nathan's book addressing autoimmunity. He says it can be triggered by Lyme and mold, and that if the underlying cause is dealt with promptly the autoimmunity often gets shrugged off.; the longer it goes on the tougher it is to rid oneself of. He doesn't give any clue as to what would be considered a short time frame.

Thanks and I was just curious. My docs feel my autoimmunity was triggered by the EBV virus but that mold played a huge role, too. (I don't have Lyme so not a factor in my case). I also agree that the longer it goes undiagnosed and untreated, the tougher it is to rid oneself of it. Actually I'm not even sure if you can rid yourself of it vs. doing treatments that achieve remission of symptoms (but the underlying autoantibodies are still there just waiting to come back if given the chance).

Dr Horowitz has been known to use the "Lyme, the great imitator" line when suggesting the autoimmunity he finds in his patients is often not the real deal and, as such, it regularly resolves with successful treatment. He's said patients can have positive ANA's, rheumatoid factor, etc, but that it can go away.

It definitely seems that Lyme (and many other things) can imitate other diseases which makes all of these chronic illnesses so confusing and challenging to tease apart IMO.
 

frozenborderline

Senior Member
Messages
4,405
https://cfsuntied.net/2014/12/04/an...eOOZqwphK_sbu-2nVEg15rnvLBXXBKjt7MDbwQ-WlJdH4


AND NOW FOR SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT!
DECEMBER 4, 2014 KHALY CASTLE
– Monty Python
(This is a repost of an article written by Khaly Castle with Erik Johnson, and originally published on 9/15/2011 at CFSUntied.com Blog)
Steering Immunostimulation By Particle’s Size: Nanoparticles and Human Health
What on earth does that mean?

Let’s talk about a paper that was prepublished in “Blood – Journal of the American Society of Hematology” in March 2010, entitled “Particle size and activation threshold: a new dimension of danger signalling”, Rettig et al. (For more detail, please click on the link to read the entire paper.)
This research article starts by describing the innate immune system in basics. The innate immune system works by detecting danger signals, or molecules that originate from invaders and disturbed or abnormal cells.
It goes on to document the three forms of nucleic acid that are recognized by the immune system, and how they are recognized by Toll Like Receptors. When those receptors are activated, the immune response is initiated. Cytokines and co-stimulation molecules are produced, and certain homing and chemokine receptors are upregulated.
Then, the paper shows that there is a difference in how the innate immune system responds when the “invader” is reduced from micro- to nano-particulates.
This is a major concept to get one’s head around.
The “Particle size” paper documents that nanoparticles, but not microparticles, induce interferon-alpha production in human cells. Research suggests that the plasmacytoid predendritic cells (pDC), which are critical mediators linking the innate and adaptive arms of the immune system, selectively take up nanoparticles, while monocytes require a larger amount of “danger signal” to be fully activated.
Both pathways stimulate the immune system the same way..but the difference seems to be that nanoparticles induce an interferon-alpha response, while microparticles induce production of TNF-alpha.
A little bit about nanoparticles:
In nanotechnology, a number of physical phenomena occur when the size of a system is reduced to nanoscale. Quantum effects become dominant when the nanometer size range is reached. This is known as the “quantum realm”. There can be an increase in surface area to volume ratio, and acceleration of ion transport. The properties of materials change as nanosize is reached and the percentage of atoms at the surface of a material becomes significant.
Although nanotechnology is a subject of bitter debate amongst scientists regarding the safety of usage, there are a multitude of studies which indicate that there are dangers to both the environment and to human health. Most of these dangers are due to the high surface-to-volume ratio, which can make the particles very reactive. Nanostructured Materials, by Jackie Yi-Ru Ying.
For instance, a recent study looked at the effects of zinc oxide nanoparticles on human immune cells, and found that the smaller the nanoparticle, the more increased the cytotoxicity. Mechanisms of toxicity involve the generation of reactive oxygen species, with monocytes displaying the highest levels, and the degree of cytotoxicity dependent on the extent of nanoparticle interactions with cellular membranes. Hanley et al, The Influences of Cell Type and ZnO Nanoparticle Size on Immune Cell Cytotoxicity and Cytokine Induction.
Some interesting factoids about mold and nanoparticles…

Aspergillus fumigatus is a common mold that is typically found in soil and decaying matter. It readily becomes airborne. It is one of the most common Aspergillus species to cause illness in individuals with compromised immune systems. For these people, Aspergillus fumigatus can become pathogenic, causing a range of symptoms and diseases. It also produces cytotoxic mycotoxins.
In nanotechnology, it has been discovered that by using the natural processes of biological systems, Aspergillus fumigatus can be used as a nanoparticle factory. The synthesis process was quite fast and silver nanoparticles were formed within minutes of silver ion coming in contact with the cell filtrate, claims the Bhainsha study from 2006, Extracellular biosynthesis of silver nanoparticles using the fungus Aspergillus fumigatus
….and sewer sludge
When legislation went into place to curtail the practice of dumping sewage waste into the ocean, a new practice emerged. Sewer sludge got renamed fertilizer, and got dumped on farmer’s fields under the guise of recycling.
According to the EPA, sewer sludge consists of “volatiles, organic solids, nutrients, disease-causing pathogenic organisms, heavy metals and inorganic ions, and toxic organic chemicals from industrial wastes, household chemicals, and pesticides.” In other words, you name it, it’s in there, including nanoparticles. And, Aspergillus fumigatus is a common byproduct of sewer sludge.
For more reading on this, try starting with The Real Dirt On Sewer Sludge, by Wendy Priesnitz
What does this have to do with CFS? Maybe nothing. More likely, maybe everything.
When I say CFS, I mean the entity that got named CFS…the Incline outbreak.
Here is an excerpt from a recent communication between Erik Johnson, Incline Village survivor, and the W.H.O.:
During the 1985 Incline Village “mystery illness” it seemed that common household molds were suddenly having a devastating effect on all of us.
Everyone knew it, everyone noticed this, but it was ENTIRELY attributed to changes in the immune function of patients due to infection, and NEVER on the possibility that something in the ambient atmosphere might have potentiated the toxicity of fungal-products from common molds.
I have been telling everyone for 25 years that I have had BETTER results by treating mold “as if it were Plutonium” than anything I have seen from the most aggressive chemotherapy aimed at viral or bacterial infections.
This is how I came to be known as “The Mold Warrior”.
”Mold Warriors” by Dr Ritchie Shoemaker. Chapt. 23 “Mold at Ground Zero for CFS”.
http://www.moldwarriors.com/
In my military career as a launcher specialist for “The Neutron Bomb”, I was trained to look for what DOESN’T happen after a neutron strike: A LOSS of immune function which leaves one susceptible to nearly anything, as opposed to consequences arising as a normal consequence from normal infection.
That is exactly the type of effect that I witnessed during the 1985 Tahoe Mystery Malady: An inexplicable loss of immune function that appeared to correlate to environmental locations.
I have read that fungi serve as “bionanofactory” for biosynthesis of nanoparticles.
It seems to me that mold does not normally have access to fine metallic particulate matter which can be processed into “ultrafine” nanoparticles, as “modern pollution” did not exist.
These metallic nanoparticles are known to affect the microglial cells and induce CP450-decoupling” with the subsequent production of Reactive Oxygen Species, which is entirely consistent with CFS.
The activities of humans have dramatically changed the potential for contact between fungi and ubiquitous airborne metallo-particulates.
If mold is capable of what the article below [refers to this article . http://www.nanowerk.com/spotlight/spotid=465.php] says mold is doing… and is converting ambient atmospheric fine metal particles into even smaller nanoparticles… the global environment is in deeper trouble than anyone suspects.
The inception of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome just might have been the cautionary warning for nanoparticulates that nobody heeded.
– Erik Johnson​
In further communications with the W.H.O., Erik Johnson made the following statements:
In the Saratoga Springs manual, the hints of a sudden surge in fungal pathogenesis is mentioned in several places where the effects matched nothing in THEIR mycotoxin literature. Dr William Croft, who published the first peer reviewed abstracts on trichothecene toxicity in the United States, said the effects were “radiomimetic”.
IAQ experts Pierre Auger and Harriet Burge agree that T2 (trichothecene) mycotoxins fall short of achieving this level of illness.
My own experiments with mold samples suggests that there are special times when this effect blazes forth with an intensity and magnitude that causes a “hit and run” effect upon the neuro-immune system which baffles physicians trying to identify a toxic substance.
To the best of my ability to discern, these times correspond to the ion-shift of the atmosphere.
Several years ago, I saw an abstract which described the capability of certain molds and bacteria to act as biosynthesizers of nanoparticles.
My speculation is that the mutation discovered by Dr Shoemaker has resulted in the conjugation of this resistance-property by various powerful “toxin forming” molds, which are now capable of withstanding the antimicrobial effects of human-introduced ubiquitous metal particulates, and processing them into extremely hazardous “nano-plumes”.
This resistance trait emerged in the late 1970’s, just prior to the incredible surge in unexplained-illness such as Gulf War, Fibromyalgia, Myalgic Encephalomyelitis/Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, Multiple Chemical Sensitivity, as well as massive increases in autism, Parkinsons, MS, and ALS.
The CFS epidemic strangely centered upon north Lake Tahoe, and oddly spared an almost identical demographic at south Lake Tahoe, only twenty miles away.
I believe that the emergence of “CFS” in such an otherwise pristine area represents the “canary” of a much larger ambient environmental alteration.
The reasons for which might be a special condition of application of ultrafine silver particles to this specific region.
During the 1980’s, the local ski resorts embarked upon an illegal and untested campaign of intense cloud seeding with silver iodide. Many environmentalists were concerned that in addition to the approved mountaintop dispersers that were strategically placed upwind, that private aircraft were covertly targeting every storm from and potential precipitation heading toward the resorts.
My speculation is that this intense seeding is responsible for gradually increased resistance in the microbial terrain of north Lake Tahoe, which combined with the newly potentiated indoor toxic molds, resulted in “spot colonies” of extremely hazardous molds which emitted nano-plumes and manifested in unprecedented immune suppression that ALLOWED people in these environments to acquire the opportunistic infections which might otherwise have been warded off, resulting in “clusters” of unexplained illness and the inception of the Chronic Fatigue Syndrome.
-Erik Johnson​
Further Food for Thought
From the Fresno Bee: Shower of toxic particles threatens Valley air
by Mark Grossi, July 14, 2010
(Last I checked, the link was broken, but it washttp://www.fresnobee.com/2010/07/14/2006814/toxic-shower-threatens-valley.html. There is reference to the entire article with a partial reprint here: http://lymebook.com/fight/shower-of-toxic-particles-could-corrode-lungs/)
A mysterious shower of microscopic chemicals near a Fresno shopping center could be the first evidence of a broad, undetected assault on the lungs of San Joaquin Valley residents.
If confirmed in other Valley cities, it means many thousands of people are daily breathing these cocktails of chemicals — known as ultra-fine particles — that corrode and damage lungs.
The plume in Fresno probably spreads over many square miles, not just the Fashion Fair area where they were discovered, said UC Davis atmospheric scientist Anthony Wexler, who detected the pollution.
Sensitive, expensive equipment is needed to detect and study ultrafine pollution. Science is only now defining the possible problem.
Wexler revealed Fresno’s midday rise in microscopic pollution last month at an air-quality conference, saying he and others will continue studying them to determine the source and extent of the plume.
Researchers also must figure out what’s in the particles and more clearly define the possible health threat. It may be years before local, state and federal officials can develop a cleanup strategy.
The particles are so small that 1,000 of them would fit across the width of a human hair. For years, science has known that such particles exist, but they are thousands of times smaller than previously studied particles in dust, soot and diesel smoke.
Health problems from such pollution were detailed last month in a study on allergic asthmatics, whose lungs are inflamed to the point that only a small amount of pollen, animal hair or other allergens can trigger a crippling attack.
The findings from Dr. Andre Nel, a UCLA medical researcher, were published by the American Journal of Physiology-Lung Cellular and Molecular Physiology.
“If there is a surge in ultra-fine pollution particles, it makes twitchy airways even more twitchy,” he said. “It results in a much lower threshold of allergens to create an asthmatic response or an attack.”
These specks can come from volcanoes or ocean spray, but they also come from printer toner, vehicle exhaust and chemical reactions in the air. Fresno’s particles may come from traffic and other pollution vapors.
The site near Fashion Fair is not far from Highway 41, Shaw Avenue and many businesses and restaurants, so there could be many different contributors to the pollution.
Wexler said he suspects the particles form after pollution gases accumulate in the air each day, though there could be a particular source spewing the particles.
But he said it’s a good bet that the problem is not just isolated in the Fashion Fair area. Thousands of Fresno residents may be exposed to the particles.
Is this midday rise in pollution occurring in other Valley cities? It’s possible, said Wexler. This kind of pollution also has been detected in other places, such as Pittsburgh, which has problems with particle pollution.
The Valley is known nationally for particle pollution. In the American Lung Association’s latest rankings, Bakersfield and Fresno-Madera were the country’s two worst places for short-term bouts of particle pollution.
The ranking applied to fine-particle pollution, which includes the smallest specks that Wexler discovered near Fashion Fair.
Researchers in Southern California say the tiny particles contain 1,000 or more different substances. The particles tend to grow larger, accumulating many toxic chemicals from the air.
In the UCLA study, Nel showed the chemical debris corrodes and injures the lungs, and the body responds with inflammation. He said it could possibly cause problems for even those with healthy lungs, but he has only studied asthmatics.
For asthmatics, Nel said conventional treatment does not address the problems created by pollution. He said science would have to alter medications, using the kind of antioxidant chemicals found in broccoli and other natural sources to combat the lung injuries.
Nel said such a treatment needs to be developed soon because there is evidence that ultra-fine pollution is becoming a problem in many places, and asthma is on the rise worldwide.
”The particles are increasing in the industrialized Northern Hemisphere,” he said. “They are being spread on the wind from city to city, country to country and even continent to continent.”
The reporter can be reached at mgrossi@fresnobee.com or (559) 441-6316.​
Let’s put it together and see what we get.
Is mold capable of acting like a nanofactory, spitting nanoplumes into the air? And can these nanoplumes carry nanoparticles that are subsequently laced with biotoxins such as tricothecene toxins? Have nature and mankind collided to create a perfect delivery system for highly toxic particles to be shuttled across cell walls and through the blood/brain barrier? If so, that would certainly create an immune system open to the uptake and residence of name-your-pathogen.
It certainly seems to be a paradigm screaming for research.
And just for fun, try this:
Silent Spring
 
Messages
39
It’s sorta odd to me that naviaux would co-sign a book that references homeopathy. I’m not against alternatives medicine in general but there’s no empirical basis for homeopathy at all. The other stuff is all interesting but when someone who is smart mentions homeopathy being valid I am suspicious that they believe in psychosomatic etiology of these diseases and think a placebo is helpful. Surely he can’t actially believe homeopathy works ... I was thinking of getting this book but now I don’t know

I've just got this book and this gave me a heavy sigh when I read it. Especially after having seen so many high recommendations for Dr Nathan and his book. Upon flicking through, there seems to be a lot more Pseudo science recommendations such as Brain retraining, EFM, Rife machine and more. There's a lot of red flags for me. I mean it doesn't mean his other knowledge and treatment recommendations are not legitimate and correct but it does make it difficult to trust someone when they recommend such treatments.
 
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seamyb

Senior Member
Messages
560
I've just got this book and this gave me a heavy sigh when I read it. Especially after having seen so many high recommendations for Dr Nathan and his book. Upon flicking through, there seems to be a lot more Pseudo science recommendations such Brain retraining, EFM, Rife machine and more. There's a lot of red flags for me. I mean it doesn't mean his other knowledge and treatment recommendations are not legitimate and correct but it does make it difficult to trust someone when they recommend such treatments.

Yea same, big sigh at some of that...

However, his predictions about what would happen when I take binders or nasal antifungals were 100% correct. So in that respect, he's been better than any doctor I've ever come across.

Perhaps he has ulterior motives for mentioning these. Perhaps when patients are so sensitive that reducing doses to tinier and tinier amounts still produces a reaction, he's preparing them mentally. Ok you can't deal with a tiny amount (I fit this category), so lets start you on absolutely nothing. Let's get you doing neural training and hocus pocus and get you into a frame of mind where hopefully you'll be better able to deal with the actual treatment. Maybe, even, his idea of homeopathy is just a very very small amount of something.

I dunno. But I do know that I've chosen to ignore it. The rest of it has played out in reality and I have genuine cause to have faith in it. The only part I care about being true is the bit where I get better.
 

perrier

Senior Member
Messages
1,254
Yea same, big sigh at some of that...

However, his predictions about what would happen when I take binders or nasal antifungals were 100% correct. So in that respect, he's been better than any doctor I've ever come across.

Perhaps he has ulterior motives for mentioning these. Perhaps when patients are so sensitive that reducing doses to tinier and tinier amounts still produces a reaction, he's preparing them mentally. Ok you can't deal with a tiny amount (I fit this category), so lets start you on absolutely nothing. Let's get you doing neural training and hocus pocus and get you into a frame of mind where hopefully you'll be better able to deal with the actual treatment. Maybe, even, his idea of homeopathy is just a very very small amount of something.

I dunno. But I do know that I've chosen to ignore it. The rest of it has played out in reality and I have genuine cause to have faith in it. The only part I care about being true is the bit where I get better.
May I inquire: what did he say about binders and nasal antifungals? Thanks. (not intending on buying this book, alas)
 

seamyb

Senior Member
Messages
560
May I inquire: what did he say about binders and nasal antifungals? Thanks. (not intending on buying this book, alas)

He said they can both cause a worsening of your condition. And indeed, they can. They cause me to get sicker than I've ever been. He says you should take tiny amounts to begin with and slowly build up the dose.
 

godlovesatrier

Senior Member
Messages
2,545
Location
United Kingdom
Couldn't Dr Nathan and others be seeing americans who are toxically poisoned by massive pharmacutical and industrial companies who poison the environment? As opposed to it being lyme for example.

While I'm not discontounting heavy metal exposure, I mean it must be in drinking water in places and if american companies are or have dumped it and it's leached into drinking water, then that's not good news.

I just think that if companies like DuPont can poison americans for 4 decades culminating in an initial 11 year class action lawsuit, then what are the other companies up to? https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...make-teflon-idUKKBN15S18U?edition-redirect=uk

I am not saying this doesn't happen in Europe or elsewhere, but maybe this could explain what's going on. I am sure not all the chemicals or heavy metals dumped cause viscous terminal and incurable cancers to manifest.
 

seamyb

Senior Member
Messages
560
Couldn't Dr Nathan and others be seeing americans who are toxically poisoned by massive pharmacutical and industrial companies who poison the environment? As opposed to it being lyme for example.

I don't think the treatments would work as well as they're claimed to. For example, the nasal antifungals for mold would not cause these patients to herx nor would they eventually get better.

That's not to say the poisoning of our environment isn't a major concern also. Thanks to DuPont, every animal on the planet has dangerous flourocarbon exposure.
 

frozenborderline

Senior Member
Messages
4,405
He said they can both cause a worsening of your condition. And indeed, they can. They cause me to get sicker than I've ever been. He says you should take tiny amounts to begin with and slowly build up the dose.
I've heard that its easier to tolerate binders when out of a moldy house and outdoor toxins, which even people following the regular mold paradigms. Not extreme avoidance, are often not dealing with. So if you have mystery toxin or hell toxin or something like that plus mold in house, and you take csm , it can cause u to have extra issues
 

Lalia

Senior Member
Messages
127
Location
Australia
Yea same, big sigh at some of that...

However, his predictions about what would happen when I take binders or nasal antifungals were 100% correct. So in that respect, he's been better than any doctor I've ever come across.

Perhaps he has ulterior motives for mentioning these. Perhaps when patients are so sensitive that reducing doses to tinier and tinier amounts still produces a reaction, he's preparing them mentally. Ok you can't deal with a tiny amount (I fit this category), so lets start you on absolutely nothing. Let's get you doing neural training and hocus pocus and get you into a frame of mind where hopefully you'll be better able to deal with the actual treatment. Maybe, even, his idea of homeopathy is just a very very small amount of something.

I dunno. But I do know that I've chosen to ignore it. The rest of it has played out in reality and I have genuine cause to have faith in it. The only part I care about being true is the bit where I get better.

I agree with your comments here @seamyb. I saw Dr Nathan because of my sensitivities and he was right about my reactions to binders (I haven't made it to antifungals yet, sigh). I think the brain retraining stuff is all about preparing patients mentally.

I did brain retraining and it absolutely did not make me better. But it did help me get out of constant panic mode and be a little more peaceful (as peaceful as you can be when your body reacts to everything).

I think, like many of the big name Drs, Nathan has one small piece of the puzzle - that there's a significant population of patients who are so sensitive they react to everything.

If you fork out to see him via video, be sure to have a good local naturopath or integrative doctor who can help you implement his recommendations. This is where things fell down for me. Nathan only provides high level advice and my local doc was pretty useless at workshopping his suggestions and turning them into practical treatment plans.
 

frozenborderline

Senior Member
Messages
4,405
Couldn't Dr Nathan and others be seeing americans who are toxically poisoned by massive pharmacutical and industrial companies who poison the environment? As opposed to it being lyme for example.

While I'm not discontounting heavy metal exposure, I mean it must be in drinking water in places and if american companies are or have dumped it and it's leached into drinking water, then that's not good news.

I just think that if companies like DuPont can poison americans for 4 decades culminating in an initial 11 year class action lawsuit, then what are the other companies up to? https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...make-teflon-idUKKBN15S18U?edition-redirect=uk

I am not saying this doesn't happen in Europe or elsewhere, but maybe this could explain what's going on. I am sure not all the chemicals or heavy metals dumped cause viscous terminal and incurable cancers to manifest.
Nobody is disagreeing with that part. Toxins are the worst cause of chronic illness imo. But the part where he recommends homeopathy and brain retraining for people who are very physically Ill is bad
 

Dufresne

almost there...
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1,039
Location
Laurentians, Quebec
If Dr Nathan is endorsing limbic retraining I'm pretty sure it's because he's seen it help people. At the time of writing I believe he'd had roughly 200 patients try it and he deemed it of value. Whether or not it's working via placebo is another matter, but I don't think that's the case.

Actually retraining makes me quite a bit worse, at least in the short term (3 weeks). I suspect the reason for this is that it really does decrease stress hormones. Naturally we think stress=bad, so decreasing it has to be a good thing. Well what if your impaired circulatory system is leaning on norepinephrine to keep you on your feet, as Dr Cheney proposed? Or if stress hormones are keeping mast cell activity in check? I mean what do they give someone in anaphylaxis? Epinephrine. What do they give people in septic shock? Norepinephrine. Within a few days of starting limbic retraining (Gupta) I go from being able to walk a couple miles without a problem to being basically housebound. So it's not for me at this time, but there's no doubt in my mind that it's doing something.

As for the rest of his "pseudo-scientific" treatments... all I can say is there is something to them as well. I admire the fact that Dr Nathan is able to go there. But if you were rankled by Toxic then his next one "Energetic Diagnosis" is probably really going to chafe. :)

https://www.amazon.ca/Energetic-Diagnosis-Neil-Nathan/dp/1628604263