Dr. John Chia talks about chronic enterovirus infection in ME/CFS - Interview by Amy Proal

RYO

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How do we get other researchers to reproduce Dr Chia’s research on stomach biopsies. It appears as a lay person that there are difficulties and limitations in consistently identifying latent enterovirus infection in tissues. Perhaps the NIH could leverage some of its research into SARS-CoV2 (an RNA virus) in looking for other latent RNA virus infections. I’ve been following Dr Chia for almost a decade, it is disappointing that his research can’t be validated.
 

Hip

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How do we get other researchers to reproduce Dr Chia’s research on stomach biopsies.
Prof Maureen Hanson of Cornell University is currently gathering funding for an enterovirus study where she plans to look into the tissues and cerebrospinal fluid of ME/CFS patients for enterovirus infection.

Prof Hanson recently published a great review paper on enterovirus and ME/CFS.
 

Hip

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What more does this man need to do to get his research validated? It's an absolute society disaster that for so long, since late 90's, he is still trying to get his theory validated no matter how much proof he can show.
The enterovirus theory of ME/CFS dates back to the 1970s. It was mainly in the UK were all the early research took place. A list of all the enterovirus ME/CFS studies is found here.

The early British studies took muscle biopsy tissue samples from ME/CFS patients, and detected enterovirus in the muscles. But because muscle biopsies are painful and leave a scar, Dr Chia pioneered a new approach, where he took stomach tissue samples instead, which are not painful.


However, the main issue with the enterovirus theory of ME/CFS is that you also find enterovirus infections in the muscle and stomach tissues of healthy controls. So this suggests that an enterovirus infection of the muscle and stomach tissues cannot be the sole cause of ME/CFS.

Some have argued that ME/CFS might arise when enterovirus enters and infects the brain. It could be that a brain infection is the critical factor which causes ME/CFS, and that the muscle and stomach infections are secondary factors, which may play a role, but the brain is the primary factor.

And certainly, 3 post-mortem studies on enterovirus ME/CFS patients have found enterovirus in their brain tissues. But we would need many more such post-mortem studies in order to attain statistical significance.

Or it could be that ME/CFS arises when enterovirus enters and infects a particular organ.


So in summary: the main issue with the enterovirus theory is that you find enterovirus in the muscle and stomach tissues of healthy controls as well as ME/CFS patients.
 
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lenora

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The other problem researchers have is that one apparent answer may lead to another question. That's why it's called research.

The most enlightening thing that came out of Dr. Chia's presentation would be the number of drugs used to treat COVID....and we need to stay on this and see how many may help some of us. Very interesting presentation and he should be thanked for his continuing interest. And getting the NIH to believe us....well, that's been a major problem since the 1980's. Now it's almost an antagonist attitude....so the answers may come through COVID. At least it's a start. Yours, Lenora.
 

lenora

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Hello @Pyrrhus (and all interested parties). Dr. Chia mentioned The Brain Donor Project and I just completed by pre-registration to have my brain removed within one hr. of death.

This org. is in Naples, FL, they'll send a specialist and there is no cost to the family.

My brain can be used for at least 4 separate organizations as all are still studying the many neurological illnesses I have. Again, for anyone interested, this is THE BRAIN DONOR PROJECT. Thanks. Yours, Lenora.
 

RYO

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Listening to Dr Nath on recent webinar it seams to be established that numerous viruses such as EBV and other herpes viruses are never cleared from the body in most patients. However, the question is how do you discern whether a certain latent viral infection is the cause or trigger for a disease vs just a bystander.

There have been numerous papers that potentially link EBV to multiple sclerosis and now a possible correlation between HHV-6 and Alzheimer’s disease.

Dr Ian Lipkin is apparently still looking into what antigen is causing B cell clonal expansion in MECFS patients. I am not sure what the process is in figuring out what the antigen trigger is (seems like looking for needle in haystack)but perhaps his research will help shed light whether the antigen is related to enterovirus.

Unfortunately, we are not any closer to answering the basic question of whether the pathophysiology of MECFS involves chronic viral infection vs auto immunity.
 
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Hip

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Unfortunately, we are not any closer to answering the basic question of whether the pathophysiology of MECFS involves chronic viral infection vs auto immunity.
Have you seen Dr Igor Markov's new theory on ME/CFS etiology? This throws in a new angle: that ME/CFS is due to bacterial toxins in the blood. Markov's research showed that 81% of ME/CFS patients have a severe level of blood toxemia. This toxemia is not just due to LPS, but to a range of bacterial toxins.

I would like to see Markov's study replicated. It's very intriguing to consider that the symptoms of ME/CFS may be due not directly to viruses or bacteria, but to the toxins bacteria produce. Of course, it could be that a viral infection sets up the conditions that creates bacterial overgrowth (dysbiosis) and the subsequent leak of bacterial toxins into the bloodstream, so there may still be a role for viruses in his theory.

Markov claims he is able to fully cure 93% of ME/CFS patients using autovaccines which target the culprit bacteria. That is a bold claim, and many are skeptical. But the idea of bacterial toxins in the bloodstream causing the symptoms of ME/CFS kind of makes intuitive sense, because we know ME/CFS is a multi-organ, multi-system disease, yet so far we have been unable to figure out what kind of factor could cause such widespread dysfunction in the body. Well a toxin in the systemic blood circulation could well have such widespread effects.
 

lenora

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Has their been any proof of the claims made by Markov? Does the study include cures? Just interested. Lenora.
 
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Have you seen Dr Igor Markov's new theory on ME/CFS etiology? This throws in a new angle: that ME/CFS is due to bacterial toxins in the blood. Markov's research showed that 81% of ME/CFS patients have a severe level of blood toxemia. This toxemia is not just due to LPS, but to a range of bacterial toxins.
I think what makes this approach interesting is, that the most effectiv treatment for mecfs was a vaccine against bacteria. And the clinical effect of that vaccine correlated with antibodies against toxins in the blood of patients.

But I wonder, wouldn’t patients improve on antibiotics when a bacterial infection is the cause?
 

lenora

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I think if my case I can safely say my immune system wasn't in the greatest shape to begin with, I was getting over major surgeries and had two viral infections, both together. I then developed FM and to get moving was almost impossible. I recovered somewhat, but then other things brought me back down along the way.

I wish they'd find an answer, but I've been wishing that for probably the past 35 years. Yours, Lenora.
 

Hip

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Has anyone tried dihydroquercetin memtioned by Dr. chia?
Where does Dr Chia mention dihydroquercetin (DHQ) in the video roughly? I have not yet watched the video.

A patient of Dr Chia's said that when visiting Dr Chia, he asked Chia's nurse whether Dr Chia's ME/CFS patients were benefiting from DHQ, and the nurse said "the response rate to DHQ has been underwhelming with most patients not noticing any benefit" (see this post). That was a few years back. That's the only info I have on it, so it will be interesting to hear some updated info.

I tried DHQ myself, but got some terrible mental health side effects (started with overstimulation, and then triggered some very unpleasant mild psychosis-like symptoms), so unfortunately had to stop.


If trying DHQ, note that oral bioavailability is very low at 0.49%, but can go up to 36% if dissolved in lipid solution. See this post. So maybe if you take DHQ with some fatty foods or drinks, it will increase bioavailability.
 
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godlovesatrier

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So I've watched this whole interview now which was excellent. Good on Amy for doing this.

Dr chia discusses the long covid patients he's seen and seems to suggest that covid activated the pre existing entereoviral infection. Have I got this right? And that the long covid is simply causes by activation or reactivation of the existing entereoviral infection which then stops the immune system clearing covid creating covid viral persistence?

Not sure if I really understood that bit right. It was based on some clinical experiences he's had with several patients but I didn't get much more than that.
 
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The enterovirus theory of ME/CFS dates back to the 1970s. It was mainly in the UK were all the early research took place. A list of all the enterovirus ME/CFS studies is found here.

The early British studies took muscle biopsy tissue samples from ME/CFS patients, and detected enterovirus in the muscles. But because muscle biopsies are painful and leave a scar, Dr Chia pioneered a new approach, where he took stomach tissue samples instead, which are not painful.


However, the main issue with the enterovirus theory of ME/CFS is that you also find enterovirus infections in the muscle and stomach tissues of healthy controls. So this suggests that an enterovirus infection of the muscle and stomach tissues cannot be the sole cause of ME/CFS.

Some have argued that ME/CFS might arise when enterovirus enters and infects the brain. It could be that a brain infection is the critical factor which causes ME/CFS, and that the muscle and stomach infections are secondary factors, which may play a role, but the brain is the primary factor.

And certainly, 3 post-mortem studies on enterovirus ME/CFS patients have found enterovirus in their brain tissues. But we would need many more such post-mortem studies in order to attain statistical significance.

Or it could be that ME/CFS arises when enterovirus enters and infects a particular organ.


So in summary: the main issue with the enterovirus theory is that you find enterovirus in the muscle and stomach tissues of healthy controls as well as ME/CFS patients.
But someone I sent your post to on Twitter said that enteroviruses DEFFO cause encephalomyelitis and encephalitis. He had HFMD and had a bad encephalomyelitis which turned into PVFS. So it is obviously correct that enteroviruses cause ME.
 
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So I've watched this whole interview now which was excellent. Good on Amy for doing this.

Dr chia discusses the long covid patients he's seen and seems to suggest that covid activated the pre existing entereoviral infection. Have I got this right? And that the long covid is simply causes by activation or reactivation of the existing entereoviral infection which then stops the immune system clearing covid creating covid viral persistence?

Not sure if I really understood that bit right. It was based on some clinical experiences he's had with several patients but I didn't get much more than that.
I would also like this clarified.