doing better, wondering why...

[pamojja]

are you saying the two should be taken together?

For me, this was the case, see post https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/doing-better-wondering-why.93582/post-2480825 of this thread.

But the above study demonstrated, that even 12 g/d is tolerated by most even for a year. Without inositol.

 

[triffid113]

Well, I got in to report some link between lithium orotate and improvement in "mitochondrial dysfunction.' But I see you're aware of that already.

To the person who posted the list of supplements they had taken for years (cudos on that, btw!) and what supplement could have caused improvements....I can't really view the list well - apparently iy's more than one screen image and it doesn't fit on my screen unless it's too blurry to read, but there are somethings you might not be thinking of:

Yes, you are taking a lot of vitamin C, BUT it's not in the active FORM! You should never take ascorbic acid in high doses because it will rob calcium out of your bones to be put in its active form (thus you should take mineral ascorbates (the active form)! ( take calcium citrate and magnesium citrate 1:1 ratio because citrate is non stone-forming, this IS an alkaline mineral form of Vitamin C, AND I can FEEL the difference in this form vs. any other. (How can I feel this, you may ask? Well, I have a weird combination of genes which makes me the canary in the mine on a lot of things - in this case, I have a Vitamin D receptor defect, which makes calcium very critical to me, especially so before I had my genes mapped, and I also have genetic hypertension, stage 3. I am very sensitive to calcium and magnesium status, I can feel what relaxes my blood vessels. So, say if I were taking ascorbic acid, it STEALs calcium from me, and I feel it). So I have taken 2g/day of mineral ascorbates every day for 50 years, no problem. I take 1g d-alpha tocopherol every day for 50 years, no problem . Since science discovered mixed tocopherols are better against cancer, I take mixed tocopherols (since I trust that my dose is high enough that 600mg or more will be the d-alpha form that has cardiovascular effects).

I don't know all the forms you are taking of everything, as I said - trouble reading your file.

But aside from forms of supplements, there are COMBINATIONS. So, for instance, what is the total amount of antioxidants you take every day? And what is the spread? So, for instance, Vitamin C is water-soluble, so only works outside the cell wall, whereas Vitamin E is lipid-soluble and works inside the cell wall, Alpha-lipoic acid works inside AND outside the cell wall (But does not replace C or E, and also can cause low blood sugar (does to me)). I think taking a variety of antioxidants is safer and better than only 1 kind. I also take astaxanthin 10mg, and selenium 400mcg (max amount you can take). Selenium is the only antioxidant that works in the thyroid. I have been in the waaaay past in a thyroid blog where they said that "zinc is like a dial to turn up the thyroid", but the thyroid MAKES ANTIOXIDANTS, so if you turn up the thyroid, you'd better make sure you get enough thyroid antioxidants (and not too much). Other things I take with anti-oxidant properties include 1g/day Oliver Leaf Extract (which I take for my blood pressure) and 10mg melatonin (the 2nd best antioxidant for the brain next to dopamine). I would think there may be antioxidant activity in rhodiola and luteolin too, both of which I take. Zinc can be used by your body as an antioxidant - there are studies saying 45mg zinc can lower your crp (a measure of inflammation) over 50%. I am trying that now because my crp has gone up this year. you should be reporting your lab measurements too with your supplement use because no one knows if you're doing ENOUGH to lower YOUR crp otherwise.

Someone asked somewhere in this thread - what causes inflammation? There are all sorts of causes of inflammation:
sugar from any source, including fruits and carbohydrates
infection(s)
not adequately cleaning your teeth (/gum disease)
not adequately cleaning your colon (both kinds of fiber)
cuts, abrasions
not enough of any antioxidant needed (your body makes free radicals itself as a byproduct of creating other necessary chemicals, such as thyroxin)
gout or high urate regardless of whether it's high enough to cause gout - it will damage joints and blood vessels(and can be genetic)
any byproduct from improper nutrition or genetics that is damaging, such as homocysteine
environmental poisons: pesticides, fluoride, smog,...
any illness (the immune system fires off H2O2, a free radical to attack dead and dying tissues, but the H2O2 ricochets around killing healthy tissue also)
etc

SOmehow I keep posting when I'm not done and it also made my text huge... it's hard to go on.

Just saying, perhaps you should get a very comprehensive blood work (or maybe at least start with crp) and if you spot any problems, start investigating how to solve each one, work on that, and when done you may be healthy(/ier). I would not at all trust the lab reference ranges as an indicator of health. I belong to lifeextension and I would look at their science-based reference ranges to find out what is not right.

Sorry, I could look more at your labs, but I'm not finding it easy. I would focus on getting a low crp and consider the effect of lithium orotate on that. Anything that crosses the BBB and is an antioxidant is of interest to me - gotta protect your brain too. so if you have methylation problems, for instance, your homocysteine in your head can be different than in your bodu due to the BBB. the biochemical pathway for methylation is not the same in brain as in body... the brain is missing one of the bits - I can't remember if the P5P+Mg "drain" path is missing or the TMG shortcut. Either one missing means the brain has a harder time keeping homocysteine down if you have methylation defects.

Best wishes

 

[bad1080]

Well, I got in to report some link between lithium orotate and improvement in "mitochondrial dysfunction.' But I see you're aware of that already.

no, not at all (unless i am forgetting something which is totally possible), all i knew was it can cross the blood brain barrier.

 

[mariovitali]

It may be better to use Phosphatidylcholine instead of Choline bitartate . Also be cautious with TMG for some reason it raised my liver enzymes

 

[bad1080]

It may be better to use Phosphatidylcholine instead of Choline bitartate

why is that?

 

[pamojja]

better to use Phosphatidylcholine instead of Choline bitartate

why is that?

Phosphatidylcholine is the natural form in eggs, and the most abundant in the human body (cell membranes). Therefore, presumably less conversion steps for metabolizing. For cognitive enhancement alone, Citicoline allegedly is the best, and alpha-GPC second.

The problem with pure PPC, it's an expensive supplement. Especially when trying to supplement at least up to the RDA of choline, since it contains so little (13%). But here the PPC from organically raised eggs are to the rescue. Still, 2 eggs a day are already satisfying to me, with only 300 mg of choline.

Therefore, I do supplement with all forms at the same time. Daily eggs, lecithin, always choline bitartrate too, for reaching a robust total choline intake (reversed my NAFLD, beside taking ~3 g/d of TMG too). PPC, Citicholine and alpha-GPC occasionally. When my purse allows.

People who don't eat eggs rarely reach the daily RDA for choline.

This to my awareness is a good enough dose per capsule PPC: https://at.iherb.com/pr/life-extension-hepatopro-900-mg-60-softgels/39625 - To reach more than the PPC in 2 eggs (still lower than the RDA, but much lower than a therapeutic dose), one would have to take 3 capsules. For about € 1,80 a day. Organic eggs are still much cheaper here, and come with lots of other nutritional goodies.

 

[pamojja]

Yes, you are taking a lot of vitamin C, BUT it's not in the active FORM! You should never take ascorbic acid in high doses because it will rob calcium out of your bones to be put in its active form (thus you should take mineral ascorbates (the active form)!

Mineral acerbate are absorbed in a steady manner through their known transporters. Ascorbic acid already within minutes by passive diffusion through stomach wall too. Though that isn't assured, because never really studied in depth - I can directly feel it within 3 minutes, when I use an ~10 g dose ascorbic acid as an antihistamine in the rhinitis season. Mineral acerbates, due to their steady absorption, simply don't have this antihistamine effect at all. (like any prescription antihistamine, for me)

I had a bad spondilodiscitis, infection of the spine 25 years ago. 2 of my vertebras fixated themselves by calcification. During the last 16 years of taking in average 25 g/d of ascorbic acid, pains from this injury gradually and continue to improve.

Please provide a reverence for your subjective claim, ascorbic acid would decalcify bones. Since it wasn't the case for me, with extreme high intake and so many years. (scurvy of the bone) While all females of my close family had their hip-bones replaced, without any ascorbic acid intake,

I do however also supplement extreme amounts of sulfur compounds, bicarbonates, magnesium, potassium and sodium (since not eating any processed food). Due to my biochemical individuality, I try to avoid supplemental calcium though. Vitamin D3 takes care of its absorption, Vitamin K2 of its distribution to bones.

what supplement could have caused improvements....I can't really view the list well - apparently iy's more than one screen image and it doesn't fit on my screen unless it's too blurry to read,

I use a 11-inch diameter screen with a minicomputer setup. Meanwhile, I do need already 2.5 dioptric reading-glass, to be able to see it too. A simple trick on a windows computer, type 'strg' or 'contr' together with the '+' key. Repeated, it will enlarge the screen content. With a '=' it reverts to normals screen size again.

But aside from forms of supplements, there are COMBINATIONS. So, for instance, what is the total amount of antioxidants you take every day? And what is the spread?

Since I take combinations of all antioxidants, I don't experience sun-burns anymore. Even though I fly at the palest in deep winter to a tropical beach, and sun-bath up to 4 hours a day from the first day there. Without sun-protection.

you should be reporting your lab measurements too with your supplement use because no one knows if you're doing ENOUGH to lower YOUR crp otherwise.

I kept a google spreadsheet with all my lab-results too, for possibly receiving feedback on health-forums. It just never happened. My spreadsheets - of supplement intakes and lab results or in combination - have become too large (therefore the small fonts), for anyone taking the huge effort to wade through such complexity.

However, I did draw conclusions from correlation (or their lack), whereby it took 3 years for a remission of symptoms of COPD, 3 later years a remission of a walking-disability from PAD, and another 3 years later from PEMs.

 

[triffid113]

I don’t want to take the time to provide a reference because you can look up the active form of mineral ascorbatees and see that it requires a mineral - calcium or magnesium, perhaps other alkaline minerals, thus taking it without those mineral(s) would require your body to get them from somewhere… if you get them from your diet, perhaps that works - or if your joints are fused together by calcium and the acidic form of vitamin c is stripping THAT calcium, then it’s fine. I would never do it myself as I have trouble getting and keeping enough calcium. If it works for you, fine.

Yes, I can see w/o a paper copy, how comparing a lot of data points would be a lot of trouble. But I am saying one assessment of whether or not you are getting enough antioxidants might be crp. I find it unusual that you would say that you have every antioxidant. I would never say that because science, and me personally, are finding new ones all the time. I am just finding that I need more zinc (also an antioxidant) than the average person. There are so many polyphenols and I am adding new ones to my regime as I discover ones of particular importance to me. Maybe you have all you need, I just don’t know.

I guess I ran out of time before - I kept having my typing get lost and retyping is a b*tch.

I wanted to add a few more reasons for needing antioxidants: senescent cells and diseases like diabetes.

Did I mention that you listed ubiquinone which is not the active form of ubiquinol? If you can afford it you can buy a bloodtest online to see if your CoQ10 levels are high enough…otherwise try ubiquinone and/or play with dose. Ubiquinone is not enough for me.

Sorry, I can only report what i see that from my knowledge I would not do. Looking it up or figuring out if it’s right for you is on you. I mean to help, but if it’s no help, please ignore.

 

[triffid113]

~2g choline and/or 13g omega3 make my brain feel like it’s on Vicks vaporing (wonderful perfusion?!).
I never was particular about form but I never bought any expensive form. Also don’t know if less will do. Right now I have barbiturate.

 

[triffid113]

I am curious how you arrived at the various dosages of your b vitamins? I pretty much choose a good active b, then take it twice a day. I see you are taking on the order of 3x as much P5P as me - does this do anything for you? With magnesium, it’s supposed to help you get rid of toxins through the methyl cycle. I used to take 50mg extra to get my homocysteine down better… always wonder if more is better.

 

[triffid113]

I take D2 by IU units - 5,000/day. Idk how that converts to mg. Just wondered if you tested if that was enough D you’re taking.

So, another thing I wondered is about your diet. Certain foods kill good intestinal biota or feed bad biota, and the absence of other foods kills off biota by starvation. So make sure you’re eating prebiotics and avoiding biota killers, like many drugs, high salt, sugar, junk foods, and presumably pop. Probiotics are needed periodically - I think once a week or so might be good, but if you persist in biota killing behavior you need it more often. One person here who recovered said taking a super probiotic helped at first then held her back.

I know you had another page of data somewhere…

 

[pamojja]

I mean to help, but if it’s no help, please ignore.

I appreciate. I know you wanted to give your particular experience to help. Was however a bid disconcerted about the claim, ascorbic acid would rob calcium from bones, which it doesn't. Calcium homeostasis in serum is tightly maintained, so that if there is not enough calcium absorbed from diet or supplements, it will indeed leach calcium from bones. But nothing intrinsically due to ascorbic acid, instead because of little calcium absorption from intake. And you already confirmed.

I can FEEL the difference in this form vs. any other. (How can I feel this, you may ask? Well, I have a weird combination of genes which makes me the canary in the mine on a lot of things - in this case, I have a Vitamin D receptor defect, which makes calcium very critical to me, especially so before I had my genes mapped, and I also have genetic hypertension

That individual experience is completely reasonable. You feel the leaching, from something which wouldn't be felt or experienced by any other without the vitamin D receptor defect. Which hinders the absorption of calcium. Serum calcium still may show normal, because it leached from the bones.

What was incongruent to me was your statement just before the above quote:

Yes, you are taking a lot of vitamin C, BUT it's not in the active FORM! You should never take ascorbic acid in high doses because it will rob calcium out of your bones to be put in its active form (thus you should take mineral ascorbates (the active form)! ( take calcium citrate and magnesium citrate 1:1 ratio because citrate is non stone-forming, this IS an alkaline mineral form of Vitamin C

Because ascorbic acid is the active oral form of vitamin C, as well as mineral ascorbate with slower absorption kinetics. From your experience of getting too little calcium from intake, you can not conclude, this would apply to anyone else, without the same vitamin D receptor defect. Hindering calcium absorption to begin with.

I take D2 by IU units - 5,000/day. Idk how that converts to mg. Just wondered if you tested if that was enough D you’re taking.

I take in average 8,000 IU vitamin D3 per day (the D2 form is misadvised, because of worse bioavailability). My serum 25(OH)D3 during the last 16 years have been 70 ng/ml in average. If I calculate it right, that's about 175 nmol/L.

Since you take substantially less, and a less bioavailable form, that of course raises the question, are you getting enough Vitamin D3, to negate the vitamin D receptor defect? - Hindering calcium absorption?

Did I mention that you listed ubiquinone which is not the active form of ubiquinol? If you can afford it you can buy a bloodtest online to see if your CoQ10 levels are high enough…

Normal serum levels are 0.8-1.4 µg/ml, some consider above 3.5 as therapeutic levels. My first test was 3.3 in 2015, concurring with my remission of a walking disability from PAD. My second test was 7 in 2019, after my remission of constant PEMs.

I had the unique experience, when starting with CoQ10, that above 160 mg/d it ceased angina like chest pains (occurring with mental or physical stress). 80 mg/d Ubiquinol had the same effect. I supplemented both in various ratios, but in average I stand at 40 mg/d of Ubiquinol and 110 mg/d Ubiquinone.

I also wrote in that post:

Above including R-5-P, niacinamide, citicoline, pyridoxin, pantethine, adenosyl-, tocotrienols, K2-mk7, etc.

I just didn't type a dozen more bioavailable nutrients out, also taken. But the total intake. Otherwise, the formatting would become even smaller.

But I am saying one assessment of whether or not you are getting enough antioxidants might be crp.

hs-CRP is reacting to every infection with steep increases. In my experience, it's good for detecting acute or chronic low-level infection.

A better marker are oxidation end products, for which I used oxidized LDL. Which declined steadily the last 16 years.

I find it unusual that you would say that you have every antioxidant. I would never say that because science, and me personally, are finding new ones all the time. I am just finding that I need more zinc (also an antioxidant) than the average person. There are so many polyphenols and I am adding new ones to my regime as I discover ones of particular importance to me.

Well, to make it short, this was my average daily supplemental intake for now almost 17 years, beside life-style changes causing remission of PAD, COPD and PEMs:

Vitamins​	40805​	​
Vitamins (fats. soluble)​	1447​	​
Minerals​	15844​	​
Ayurveda min.​	1743​	​
Aminos​	36579​	​
Fats​	19629​	​
Soluble Fiber​	10563​	​
​	​	​
Plants extracts​	10947​	​
Ayurvedic ext.​	12621​	​
Plants, dried​	14671​	​
Ayur. Plants​	28795​	​
Sugar​	12525​	​
​	​	​
​	207193​	mg​

Standardized phytonutrients (including polyphenols, flavonoids, tannins, saponins, etc..) were at about 6.7 g/d. I hoped much less intake would have sufficed.

Will answer the remaining questions later, I have to stop for an internist appointment now.

 

[pamojja]

I pretty much choose a good active b, then take it twice a day. I see you are taking on the order of 3x as much P5P as me - does this do anything for you? With magnesium, it’s supposed to help you get rid of toxins through the methyl cycle. I used to take 50mg extra to get my homocysteine down better… always wonder if more is better.

Needs are always individually different. About 1.9 g/d of oral elemental magnesium only alleviated my very painful muscle cramps somewhat. I needed an additional 32 magnesium infusions, to make the frequent cramps cease (deficiency confirmed in blood tests). The majority wouldn't tolerate even half my daily taken amount of magnesium.

A sign of vitamin B6 sufficiency is to remember dreams. Is important for Mg-metabolism too.

I am curious how you arrived at the various dosages of your b vitamins?

Simple. Always start at the lowest possible dose of a nutrient, and increase gradually over weeks, month and years. While monitoring blood-test worsening or improving, to adjust doses.

I know you had another page of data somewhere…

The most extensively documented here: https://www.longecity.org/forum/stacks/stack/111-pad-and-additional-remissions/

Will answer the remaining questions later, I have to stop for an internist appointment now.

The calcification of my arteries, especially the main 80% stenosis at my aorta bifurcation, but as well my max. carotid intimal thickness, and only little down my legs, remained unchanged since the remission of the walking-disability from PAD. Which is good news, usually calcification of arteries progress by about 25% per each year.

 

[bad1080]

a considerable decrease in saturated fat

i now believe that is a key part of it. i had a nougat croissant today as a treat and almost immediately after felt an impact on my brain (brain-foggy/dizzy).

edit: but then again i still eat cream cheese, butter and cheddar all of which have saturated fats as well, so maybe it's the sugar or additives/preservatives? idk...
now i am achy and farty too

edit2, the next day: i can feel the inflammation in my knees today and i can totally see how something like it but daily would lead me back to where i was real quick.

 

[pamojja]

I tolerate all saturated fats very well. And with your list of pure well tolerated saturated fats seem to do too. The actual ingredients of a nougat croissant are: wheat flour, water, butter, sugar, salt, yeast, malt extract, and a filling of hazelnut nougat cream.

I see other possibly offending, like the flour and sugar. Double the carbohydrates than fats. Too many carbohydrates often don't go well together with fats.

i can totally see how something like it but daily would lead me back to where i was real quick.

I, too, have to avoid all processed foods, or pay for it the same day. After all, they all come with sugar and fats. Not to talk about other additives.

 

[bad1080]

wheat flour, water, butter, sugar, salt, yeast, malt extract, and a filling of hazelnut nougat cream.

ok from that list we can eliminate: water, salt, butter and wheat flour (is in the ramen noodles)

Too many carbohydrates often don't go well together with fats.

what's the connection here?

edit:
still unbelievable to me is the fact i no longer need to go to the toilet at night. i was under the impression that's just a fact of life, you need to go at least once after a certain age but now i believe it is all related to inflammation too

 

[pamojja]

what's the connection here?

I am of the opinion, that some do fine with more carbs (not too much sugar though), some with more fats.

One reason why both high doesn't go well together is because the body switches its fuel between sources. With one of both high, very efficient. But both high, energy utilization it disrupted. It leads to higher inflammation, increased novo lipogenesis to fatty liver and insulin resistance. Insulin is increased with carbs, preferred for energy, and promotes storage of fats.

I immediately feel the effect of disrupted digestion. Bloating and diarrhea.

To know if one tolerates carbs well, a simple post-prandial blood glucose check about an hour after taking the meal will tell. From about 140 mg/dl upward is already prediabetic, with the warranty to turn fully diabetic within maybe 10 years, if high carbs are not reduced. With intake of both high, even faster.

and wheat flour (is in the ramen noodles)

It all depends on the amount of quickly providing a boost to blood glucose carbs due to preconditions. I have to avoid all noodles, bread or potatoes, which make me prediabetic. Except in homeopathic doses.

Responses to carbs from different sources, can be different, too. The preparation of wheat flour in ramen might have different effects on blood glucose, than from bread, or different breads. Cooled down potatoes, for example, do turn some of their carbs into resistant starch, a fiber only.

 

[bad1080]

I have to avoid all noodles

i thought i have a problem with (regular) noodles (even spelt/dinkel ones) but now i think it must have something to do with the sauce or pesto i eat with them because i usually feel not good after eating them but it is different with the ramen... bread is usually no problem for me either (unless it's toast or white bread, i do fine with rye and darker bread)

simple post-prandial blood glucose check about an hour after taking the meal will tell. From about 140 mg/dl upward is already prediabetic

is that the prick test (blood)? if so, did you buy your own device or how did you get it done? i guess something like that could explain the dip after eating...

 

[pamojja]

Yes, blood glucose prick test meters are cheap (20,-). It only gets expensive with unexplainable high measurements, and therefore one has to sort out every kind and amount of carbs eaten, by measuring 1 hr after every meal. At 50 Cents each test strip. It's taken me years. I had to cut down to only half an apple per breakfast. Cakes at any amounts are off limit for me.

At first check every 10 minutes around the 1-hour mark. Since with biochemical individuality the time of the highest response differ. Docs are only interested in long-term HbA1c or fasting glucose. Once those get too high, you're prescribed anti-diabetic medications. Usually without improvement.

 

[bad1080]

It only gets expensive with unexplainable high measurements, and therefore one has to sort out every kind and amount of carbs eaten

not sure i understand the expensive part, is that because you need a different device for that? or because you need to take a lot of measurements?

At first check every 10 minutes around the 1-hour mark

so take a measurement at 60mins, then 70mins, 80mins and so on after eating until the value no longer increases? (i guess with this it's the latter part of my first question)