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does zeolite cause herxheimer reaction?

ebethc

Senior Member
Messages
1,901
I used it last week and have been sick since Saturday... Can't tell if it's a die off or just a regular old bug. thanks
 

ebethc

Senior Member
Messages
1,901
Hey @ahmo
I was hoping that was the case! However, I've been reading conflicting things on PR.. Some say that it contains aluminum, which ADDS a toxic metal... Have you heard this? what do you think?

I am on my 5th day of either herxheimer or aluminum toxicity (!) and finally feeling a little better but still could go right back to bed... My face looks less puffy, which is a good sign! I got a good night's sleep last night, went for a little walk yesterday, and did a FIR sauna last night... I hope I'm not poisoning myself w aluminum..

Have you used chlorella? I'm afraid of iodine.
 

SOC

Senior Member
Messages
7,849
A Herxheimer reaction only occurs in very specific circumstances where very large amounts of certain bacteria or spirochetes are killed off suddenly. The bacteria or spirochete has to be a type that produces significant toxins when it dies and there has to be a massive and sudden kill so that the toxins produced overwhelm the body's ability to remove the toxins. Since zeolite is not a potent anti-pathogen, it seems unlikely that your case is a Herxheimer reaction.

Herxheimer reaction is not all that common. People tend to incorrectly blame all kinds of bad reactions to anti-pathogens on "herxing". This can be dangerous as the bad reaction may be indicative of a problem with the treatment. If the bad reaction is dismissed as "herxing", the individual might not take appropriate action (stop the treatment, get medical care for the bad response).

If I were in your shoes, I'd be looking at the potential bad consequences of taking zeolite or other things that have occurred in the past week that might be making you sick.

Some say that it contains aluminum, which ADDS a toxic metal...
Zeolite is an aluminosilicate, so yes, it contains aluminum. I have no idea whether taking zeolite leaves any aluminum behind in your body, but I certainly wouldn't swallow the stuff.
 
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ebethc

Senior Member
Messages
1,901
People tend to incorrectly blame all kinds of bad reactions to anti-pathogens to "herxing". This can be dangerous as the bad reaction may be indicative of a problem with the treatment. If the bad reaction is dismissed as "herxing", the individual might not take appropriate action (stop the treatment, get medical care for the bad response).

@SOC
this is exactly my concern... how do you know if you're just hurting yourself, vs going through a "healing crisis"-slash-herxheimer-slash-whateveryouwanttocallit.... this is one my biggest concerns & frustrations w all the experimentation that I've been doing for the past couple of years (much longer than that in, but just really intensely in the past couple of years)

I just picked up some chlorella today, and I'm going to try that and put the zeolite away... My concern w Chlorella is that it has iodine, and I'm sensitive to iodine... I got a freshwater version of chlorella (very low iodine) and taking a small dose (10 capsules = dosage and i'm taking 2). Also, taking selenium these days which should balance any iodine.. we'll see.
 

Sushi

Moderation Resource Albuquerque
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19,934
Location
Albuquerque
I just picked up some chlorella today, and I'm going to try that and put the zeolite away.
Many find that they have to be very careful with chlorella too. Low and slow is usually the safest way to start.
 

Mary

Moderator Resource
Messages
17,287
Location
Southern California
because of the iodine?

Chlorella can mobilize mercury in the body and you can end up feeling quite sick as mercury that is stored in the tissues is released.

I'm wondering if your reaction to the zeolite was a detox reaction. As I'm sure you know, zeolite is used to detox heavy metals, including mercury.

I used to be very sensitive to anything that could cause cleansing or detoxing. I think my detox pathways were impaired, and I ended up "retoxing" - toxins would get mobilized from cells but then just circulate without getting expelled, making me feel sick. If you have a heavy toxic load, you can get sick if you detox too quickly.

So with chlorella or anything similar (including zeolite), I would go very slowly until you see how you react.

Are you trying to detox with the zeolite and chlorella and the FIR sauna - all typically used for detoxing?

I did have a terrible time for many years any time I tried to detox. I had symptoms consistent with mercury toxicity but I would get very sick each time I tried something. I did Andy Cutler's protocol without much success. Then I sort of stumbled across 3 amino acids, separately, at different times, which all caused a detox reaction for me. However, they were all beneficial in different ways and I kept trying in lower doses and gradually I came to tolerate them and realized some months ago that I'm no longer detoxing. The amino acids are glycine, l-glutamine and inositol. I was taking the glycine and inositol for sleep, and the glutamine for endurance and helping my gut.

Here's a very interesting article on Phase II liver detoxification, which mentions these amino acids as being necessary for this phase II liver detoxification: http://www.diagnose-me.com/treatment/liver-detoxification-phase-II-support.htmlI

It also mentions taurine, cysteine and choline, all of which I take.
 

ebethc

Senior Member
Messages
1,901
Chlorella can mobilize mercury in the body and you can end up feeling quite sick as mercury that is stored in the tissues is released.

@Mary @Sushi
I don't think that I have a mercury problem... I haven't had any mercury fillings for years, and I don't eat a lot of tuna. I'm sensitive to VOC's and mold and pollution, so any detoxing would come from those sources.. (it's possible that trace amounts of mercury are in pollution?? not sure.. I don't think it's the biggest problem, though)


I'm wondering if your reaction to the zeolite was a detox reaction. As I'm sure you know, zeolite is used to detox heavy metals, including mercury.

I find it hard to know if I'm "detoxing" or having a bad reaction to a therapy/protocol! One of the most frustrating aspects of trying to get better..


Are you trying to detox with the zeolite and chlorella and the FIR sauna - all typically used for detoxing?

Yes - except I'm ditching the zeolite.
I'm on a low amylose diet (no grains or root veggies) per Dave Asprey's mold detox
I'm using high doses of Omega 3 and Singulair to bring down inflammation - seems to be working.
Other stuff too... a little Folate / Mb12; Zinc; Selenium; Calcium/Mg before bed. I tried the activated charcoal / bentonite clay foot bath yesterday - I liked it! I had a weird sensation in my mouth afterwards that I didn't understand.

Then I sort of stumbled across 3 amino acids, separately, at different times, which all caused a detox reaction for me. However, they were all beneficial in different ways and I kept trying in lower doses and gradually I came to tolerate them and realized some months ago that I'm no longer detoxing. The amino acids are glycine, l-glutamine and inositol. I was taking the glycine and inositol for sleep, and the glutamine for endurance and helping my gut.

Here's a very interesting article on Phase II liver detoxification, which mentions these amino acids as being necessary for this phase II liver detoxification: http://www.diagnose-me.com/treatment/liver-detoxification-phase-II-support.htmlI

It also mentions taurine, cysteine and choline, all of which I take.

Aminos are really interesting - really powerful, for better or worse... I had a bad crash from Arginine last Fall... One of my worst... My body and brain love glutamine BUT I feel like it could stimulate glutamate.. I take it intermittently. Thanks for the link! It looks really interesting, and I will read up in a day or two.. I'm kind of saturated right now..

I was reading about OKG for ammonia removal.. and I'm also curious about Calcium D Glucarate, based on Dave Asprey's recommendation... it seems like I tried it a long, long time ago, but didn't like it... I would try it again, though.
 

SOC

Senior Member
Messages
7,849
@SOC
this is exactly my concern... how do you know if you're just hurting yourself, vs going through a "healing crisis"-slash-herxheimer-slash-whateveryouwanttocallit.... this is one my biggest concerns & frustrations w all the experimentation that I've been doing for the past couple of years (much longer than that in, but just really intensely in the past couple of years)
Herxheimer reactions are not benign, either, and should not be ignored as being a good healing reaction. In some cases it's safe to wait it out, but in others treatment is advisable to moderate the reaction. This is why it's wise to be under the care of a physician when you are having a bad reaction to a treatment, conventional medicine or alternative. The doctor can help determine whether your bad reaction indicates you need to stop treatment or if you need additional treatment for the reaction.

I just picked up some chlorella today, and I'm going to try that and put the zeolite away... My concern w Chlorella is that it has iodine, and I'm sensitive to iodine... I got a freshwater version of chlorella (very low iodine) and taking a small dose (10 capsules = dosage and i'm taking 2). Also, taking selenium these days which should balance any iodine.. we'll see.
You might want to give your body a break from these alternative treatments and let it get back to some kind of equilibrium before you throw something new at it. It might also be wise to hunt up a naturopath or other medically-trained alternative medicine practitioner to guide your experiments since you've had a bad reaction to at least one alternative treatment. Alternative treatments, while possibly helpful, are not necessarily safe or benign, and like conventional medicine can be quite dangerous. You need someone with solid knowledge to help sort out what you need and how to interpret your reactions.
 

ebethc

Senior Member
Messages
1,901
You might want to give your body a break from these alternative treatments and let it get back to some kind of equilibrium before you throw something new at it.

Not an option. I have to move forward. It's either progress or euthanasia,.

Alternative treatments, while possibly helpful, are not necessarily safe or benign, and like conventional medicine can be quite dangerous.

Yep.

You need someone with solid knowledge to help sort out what you need and how to interpret your reactions.

hahahahahaha....Where IS this magical person who has the answers???????????? I have gone to dozens of conventional and alternative people over the course of decades... My worst mistakes have been under the guidance of "experts".... I don't even want to add up how much money I've paid them. I'm scheduled to see Dr Kaufman at the OMI this month... $450 for the first visit, a few hundred for the follow up 2 wks later, plus tests. no idea how I'm going to pay for it, and no expectations even if I can find a way to go.
BTW - I'm adopted and met my birth mother during college... She and her oldest daughter have the same symptoms to I know I'm not a hypochondriac.. They've tried everything and nothing works for them, either.
 
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Location
Oxfordshire, UK
I was just going to ask- where is this person who will even listen to you explain the reactions and responses that you can feel happening to you, let alone then go on to tell you what you need?

In my experience mainstream doctors will not listen to anything other than a perfect text book case that they can "treat" with pharmaceuticals. Anything other and they are out of their depth.

My new GP has already told me that I know more about bodies than she does, and that their training is limited and narrowly restricted.This is why we are forced into experimenting with things like xeolite, chlorella etc; it is all we have left.
 

ebethc

Senior Member
Messages
1,901
I was just going to ask- where is this person who will even listen to you explain the reactions and responses that you can feel happening to you, let alone then go on to tell you what you need?

EXACTLY.... and doesn't anyone w CFS understand this??

In my experience mainstream doctors will not listen to anything other than a perfect text book case that they can "treat" with pharmaceuticals. Anything other and they are out of their depth.

yep - if you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail! Even Montoya (CFS expert at Stanford) just gives everyone anti-virals... I think they're all just trying to prove how fantastic their protocol is..

My new GP has already told me that I know more about bodies than she does, and that their training is limited and narrowly restricted.This is why we are forced into experimenting with things like xeolite, chlorella etc; it is all we have left.

The pain specialist that I went to last year told me most doctors didn't know that much about chemistry... we were talking about 23andme results, and building protocols around SNPs / co-factors. I was complaining about how it was over my head and I was looking for someone to help and not having and luck & just spending a lot of money on people who claim to know something (and help SOME people)... I appreciated his forthrightness!

Oh - and before someone tells me that I can't pick doctors and that's my "real" problem, and I think I pick excellent doctors (usually)... the problem is that the science just isn't there yet, hence, the never ending empirical process of reading and trying...
 
Messages
15,786
hahahahahaha....Where IS this magical person who has the answers???????????? I have gone to dozens of conventional and alternative people over the course of decades... My worst mistakes have been under the guidance of "experts"....
Licensed Naturopathic Doctors (NDs). They don't always have the answers, but it's my experience that they're willing to look into problems and try reasonable treatments. The one I saw was pretty cheap, and for a decent appointment length.
 

ebethc

Senior Member
Messages
1,901
Licensed Naturopathic Doctors (NDs). They don't always have the answers, but it's my experience that they're willing to look into problems and try reasonable treatments. The one I saw was pretty cheap, and for a decent appointment length.

yep ... I tried a couple naturopaths..
 

MeSci

ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?
Messages
8,231
Location
Cornwall, UK
A Herxheimer reaction only occurs in very specific circumstances where very large amounts of certain bacteria or spirochetes are killed off suddenly. The bacteria or spirochete has to be a type that produces significant toxins when it dies and there has to be a massive and sudden kill so that the toxins produced overwhelm the body's ability to remove the toxins. Since zeolite is not a potent anti-pathogen, it seems unlikely that your case is a Herxheimer reaction.

Herxheimer reaction is not all that common. People tend to incorrectly blame all kinds of bad reactions to anti-pathogens on "herxing". This can be dangerous as the bad reaction may be indicative of a problem with the treatment. If the bad reaction is dismissed as "herxing", the individual might not take appropriate action (stop the treatment, get medical care for the bad response).

I agree that the term 'Herxing' is probably overused, but gram-negative bacteria do release endotoxins/lipopolysaccharides when they die, and this has a range of adverse effects. Maybe 'bacterial die-off' would be a better term than 'Herxing'.
 

MeSci

ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?
Messages
8,231
Location
Cornwall, UK
Oh - and before someone tells me that I can't pick doctors and that's my "real" problem, and I think I pick excellent doctors (usually)... the problem is that the science just isn't there yet, hence, the never ending empirical process of reading and trying...

I think that a more-common problem is that the science is 'there' - but it hasn't yet reached clinical practice. Research findings commonly take 10-20 years to reach clinicians. That includes negative findings, i.e. that a commonly-used drug or other treatment doesn't work.
 

ebethc

Senior Member
Messages
1,901
I think that a more-common problem is that the science is 'there' - but it hasn't yet reached clinical practice. Research findings commonly take 10-20 years to reach clinicians. That includes negative findings, i.e. that a commonly-used drug or other treatment doesn't work.

Right, the data is incomplete because it either the research hasn't happened at all, or it's still in the pipeline (stuck way upstream potentially..)

I went to a lecture on the microbiome given by Dr Kat Pollard from Univ. of Calif. at San Francisco.. She said that any time a report / finding comes out on the microbiome "flip a coin" to see if it sticks...So, there's the extreme variability in consistency.... Emerging areas of study like the microbiome - which is very relevant to understanding the immune system - are extremely fickle.

In the mean time, I'll stick w my n=1 studies..
 

Mary

Moderator Resource
Messages
17,287
Location
Southern California
I don't think that I have a mercury problem... I haven't had any mercury fillings for years, and I don't eat a lot of tuna. I'm sensitive to VOC's and mold and pollution, so any detoxing would come from those sources.. (it's possible that trace amounts of mercury are in pollution?? not sure.. I don't think it's the biggest problem, though)

I had my mercury fillings out around 1997 --- mercury only showed up in tiny amounts on hair analysis in recent years - however, my symptoms were consistent with mercury toxicity. It can be stored in the tissues for years until its mobilized by something like chlorella or zeolite, etc. The main reason I thought I had mercury toxicity was how my brain was affected - I would feel like I was stoned or on a drug, spacy, trouble thinking clearly etc., also extra tired and digestion off. So the fact that you haven't had mercury fillings for years doesn't mean much. However, your detoxing can come from other sources too as you mentioned. At one time my liver was overloaded with chemical solvents from a job I'd had years ago, and I felt sick and tired and toxic, until I did a liver detox.

Re mercury - there's a relatively new test which is supposed to be the gold standard: Mercury Tri Test by Quicksilver Scientific. https://www.quicksilverscientific.com/mercury-testing/testing/mercury-tri-test
I had this testing done in February of this year. Interestingly, it showed no heavy mercury load and also that my detox pathways were working efficiently. However, this was AFTER I had pushed my way (slowly) through taking those amino acids I wrote about above, and my detoxing reactions had stopped. So I'm still convinced that supplying those amino acids is what helped me with my detox issues, which were major at one time.

You're right - amino acids can be very potent, I think they've helped me almost more than anything else.

I find it hard to know if I'm "detoxing" or having a bad reaction to a therapy/protocol! One of the most frustrating aspects of trying to get better..

In my experience, if I've been taking something that can cause detoxing or cleansing and I react strongly to it, it has been a detox reaction. If I've had a bacterial infection (like strep) and take something which kills the bacteria and end up getting wiped out, it's a herx.

One thing that has kept me from going mad with all of this is muscle testing. I've seen perhaps 6 chiropractors over the last 20 years, and only one was truly incompetent, but the others all helped me with various issues using muscle testing. And consistently over the years mercury kept showing up as the culprit when I was feeling sick and toxic and they did their muscle testing. I eventually learned to do muscle testing on my self, and generally what I came up with was confirmed when I would see the chiropractor.