Does your doctor sell you supplements?

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sometexan84

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This is how many docs are selling supplements these days...

Google Search (using advanced search parameters)
"integrative OR functional OR internal medicine" AND chronic fatigue syndrome AND "shop OR store"

1,970,000 Results
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Example links from results:
http://www.drhirani.com/diet/dr-hiranis-holistic-approach-to-cfs/
https://secure.endfatigue.com/about-us/jacob-teitelbaum-md
https://thecenterforfunctionalhealth.com/chronic-fatigue/
https://www.wellintegrative.com/store/
https://www.vinehealthcare.com/2018/02/07/science-unraveling-mysterious-chronic-fatigue-syndrome/
https://jjimd.com/services/chronic-fatigue-syndrome/
https://www.renewedvitalitymd.com/functional-medicine/
https://richmondfunctionalmedicine.com/fibromyalgia-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-part-1/

The search results don't ACTUALLY mean there are 1.97 Million doctor websites selling products. BUT, at the same time, this exact search I did would have excluded LOTS of other relevant sites.

The American Medical Association actively discourages the practice through its ethics opinions, which explicitly prohibit such conflicts of interest between care for the patient, and the doctor’s financial self-interest.
 

geraldt52

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...The American Medical Association actively discourages the practice through its ethics opinions, which explicitly prohibit such conflicts of interest between care for the patient, and the doctor’s financial self-interest...

The AMA should have the same reservations with doctors receiving freebies from big pharma, but that might hit too many of them too close to home...
 

Mouse girl

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Yes, I have and most other desperately ill cfs/me patients I've known over the last 25 years have been taken advantage of some doctors and alternative peeps who see that those with such a horrible disabling disease and no non experimental treatments to offer will pay anything to get well even when things seem iffy. Any time I see "holistic" or even better, "anti-aging" medicine, I take as a warning label that states: "Patient pays for doctor's beach house medicine!"

I think sometimes the patient community can really be our own worst enemy as anti science and anti vaccine voices seem to have taken over. It happened in the AIDS community when in the early days. Some patients who were anti science, anti regulation fought against safe sex and they caused many to die. I'm not sure why the world has become so anti science but every human I know has been helped by science and modern medicine. Most of us wouldn't have reached adulthood without modern medicine. As for supplements, I think they can help a bit for some for a bit. Some supps helped me to get back to normal baseline but after that, I was just wasting enormous amounts of money as I was just sooo desperate to do everything I could to get better. Now, I know better. It's such a shame to see how far this country has fallen in critical thinking and education. And it's only getting worse and worse I fear.
 

Learner1

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@sometexan84

I have a complex, multi-organ system disease, I've been fighting for 4 1/2 years. No MD in my area would help me. They wouldn't run tests, they wouldn't let me see an immunologist, they wouldn't interpret my testing to find the actual problems I had, and wouldn't treat them. Meanwhile, I was sliding downhill, sleeping 16 hours a day, and was totally brain fogged.

Meanwhile, I was seeing a functional medicine doctor who took the time to spend with me, listening, ordering tests, and starting me on the path to wellness. Appointments with him lasted 30, 45, and 60 minutes. He took my insurance, and I was thrilled. However, my insurance doesn't reimburse for that kind of time. So, how does a doctor pay the rent, pay the staff, pay gur malpractice insurance, pay for software, keep the lights on, and buy all the supplies needed to keep the office running, and break even, or even maybe pay himself?

That's why these doctors sell supplements, for the same price you can buy them online or at Pharmaca. And, in my state, I don't have to pay the regular 10% sales tax if I buy from the doctor. They make the same profit that the online or brick and mortar sellers do, and save me 10% sales tax.

And, in return, I get 30, 45, or 60 minutes of brainpower working on my complex problems. This system has greatly helped me improve.

In time, I've had some conventional MDs who have helped me. They have the same financial strains but they handle it differently. One doesn't take insurance, two others stopped taking it due to battles with insurance companies about how much time to forms with patients and they now all charge $350 to $600 per visit. This makes it very difficult as a patient to continue to get help - hopefully one recovers before one runs out of money. Unfortunately, this disease is complex and takes time.

So, I had to pick one of the three as I couldn't afford them all. one was my primary care doctor and the other two specialists. One has been incredibly helpful to me, and I wouldn't have improved as much without this help but doesn't do what my functional medicine doctors do that has also helped.

All of these talented people deserve to be paid for their services. Medical care is expensive. The doctors are caught in this system just as we all are with all kinds of constraints in what they go and costs of doing business. They make different decisions about how they turn their businesses - many don't want to be business people and end up working for large healthcare systems that have all kinds of rules that stand in the way of ME/CFS patients getting the diagnostics and treatments they need.

Most doctors don't want to deal with ME/CFS patients. We are time consuming and a hassle. The few doctors willing to help and are competent have waiting lists and a lot of competition from other patients to see them.

Supplements have been a big part of my care, and I wouldn't have made the progress I've made without them. They've helped my POTS and MCAS, greatly improved my energy, feed my mitochondria, get rid of heavy metals and mycotoxins, support my hormones and immune system, and deal with the many nutrient deficiencies and imbalances caused by the infections and immune system problems that conventional medicine has helped.

I am much better and have an active life these days and am very thankful for the care I've received.

As for quoting Quackwatch, you might want to learn more about the man behind it:

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/quackwatch-fraud-david-rowland

https://naturopath4you.com/quack-watch-what-you-need-to-know-about-dr-stephen-barrett/

https://chiro.org/LINKS/FULL/Quackwatch_Founder_Loses_Defamation_Case.shtml

http://www.humanticsfoundation.com/QuackWatchWatch.htm

There are several evidence based treatments that I've benefited from that have been panned by this failed psychiatrist. Any time any doctor proposes a treatment to me, I do my own research and look for evidence that supports trying that treatment and that it is right for me. I've had very bad reactions to 8 prescription drugs, one that almost killed me and some with long term consequences, so I've learned to be properly suspicious of any treatment.

This is a complex disease. It is not easy to find help, and there is no known cure, no standard of care, and no FDA approved drugs. So, as patients, we need to carefully choose who we work with, choose treatments carefully and use our resources wisely. I've found treatments I'd never heard about before that have been essential to my progress. If I'd been put off by buying supplements from my doctor or some sloppily researched Barrett article slamming a treatment I was considering that proved to be successful, I wouldn't have made progress.

There's a lot to learn... Good luck.
 

YippeeKi YOW !!

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What is there to do?
Read everything you can, from those dense and purposely (at least it seems so) opaque research papers on NIH and other science-y sites to the more superficial input from MedNet and Healthline et al. Take your research as deep as you can manage. Become a lay expert in areas you never dreamed of being interested in before.


You've correctly identified the problem, one most of us have bashed our heads against as well. Now you have to find the solution.
Ask other people, who are not Docs, what they think. Like us lot here!
There are many contributors here whose knowledge is extremely in-depth and probably superior to the Drs you've mentioned, at least in terms of issues of importantce to you personally. Dont take them at their word; research everything they write and propose.
But it seems to me this forum is active w/ people who do not have the answers.
Then you're perhaps not casting a wide enough net, or deep enough. Check out @Freddd for methylation and other similar issues. @Hip has a lot of info, even tho he still suffers from a lot of the same issues and problems that we do. They all do. But the answers that didn't work for them might be more beneficial to you. @BeADocToGoTo1 is very well informed and well-read in a number of areas. Quite a few members here are Drs themselves, or researchers. There are dozens more, you'll have to spend time and energy in searching them out. It's worth the effort.
When I get better, I plan on creating a final post here in the hopes of helping others.
At which point, I'll never have the need to return to this forum again. I'd imagine it's this way for many.
Not as many as you seem to think or at least not for all. Many have gotten better, some of them much better, and still hang out with us because we've all become foxhole buddies.


You're still too new here to have experienced that. I hope you do, it's massively healing of itself, and getting to know members better also gives you more solid insight into the value of what they have to offer.
 
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YippeeKi YOW !!

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As for quoting Quackwatch, you might want to learn more about the man behind it:
Thank you so much for posting this. I'm pretty wiped today, but had determined, with a deep sigh, that I was going to have to search out some of the articles I remember reading about Quackwatch and it's shifty founder.


You saved me energy I dont have, and I'm grateful.....

Quackwatch is filled with inaccurate and often libelous information. but it's worth a look if you;re willing to do the arduous follow up research to determine if it's another hair up the posterior of whatsisname or valid input. Which, very occasionally, it actually is. Rare tho, same principle as the broken clock.
 
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YippeeKi YOW !!

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The American Medical Association actively discourages the practice through its ethics opinions, which explicitly prohibit such conflicts of interest between care for the patient, and the doctor’s financial self-interest.
The AMA should have the same reservations with doctors receiving freebies from big pharma, but that might hit too many of them too close to home...
:):):D:D:D:rofl::rofl::lol::lol::lol::lol::_:_:_:_

Couldn't have said it better !!!

The AMA allows its members to accept a rich cornucopia of gifts, from measly little personalized coffee mugs and pens with their practice's names on them, to expensive vacations for specialized 'conferences' in extremely attractive locations, to massively remunerative speaking engagements, which are dealt out ONLY to those Drs who've proven their value to the pharma companies. Also huge grants to universities, and therefore total control over their research and even their course syllabuses and what textbooks they can use, and straight on to scholarships, granted especially to their children of college age.

Believe me, whatever the supplement groups and companies dole out to their Drs and the aisle managers in health food stores, absolutely pales and shrinks to invisibility by comparison, pious mouthings by the AMA to the contrary notwithstaning..
 

Mary

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@sometexan84 - Does your doctor sell you chemotherapy?: https://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/26/...e-profits-and-scrutiny-to-cancer-doctors.html
Talk about a conflict of interest!

I think patients cannot rely on their doctors for information. It's that simple. There are many doctors who push statins which can have very serious harmful effects for slightly elevated cholesterol. Drug companies keep lowering safe cholesterol levels so that more drugs will be sold. We have to do our own research and decide for ourselves what drugs we will take. Many doctors give out PPIs without investigating whether a patient has low stomach acid. PPIs can cause all kinds of health problems. Anti-depressants are handed out like candy. Flouroquinolones have damaged thousands, and yet when I raised this issue with doctors, they just basically shrugged. We are not safe relying on doctors. We have to do our own investigation and research. Also, we have to educates ourselves about "side' (actual) effects. A study done some years ago found that doctors in the main ignore patients complaints of effects.

And if a doctor or practitioner recommends certain supplements, again, do your own research. If the practitioner sells the supplement, see if you can get a better price elsewhere.

I've been sick with ME/CFS for 22 years. In that time, I've made a fair amount of progress, due almost entirely to self-experimentation. I'm taking several supplements which are helping me. 13 years ago I had 1 or 2, at the most, "good" days a month - a "good" day was one in which I wasn't crashed or sick or herxing or detoxing or feeling like crap for unknown (at the time) reasons. I now often have 2 or 3 "good" days a week. On a "good" day I'm still limited to around 4 hours of light activity in order to avoid crashing the next day, but I feel much more human than 13 years ago. And this is due almost entirely to various supplements I've learned about through arduous self-experimentation and reading.
 

Wishful

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As for quoting Quackwatch, you might want to learn more about the man behind it:

The links are about legalistic wrangling, which doesn't seem to have much to say about reality, but rather who has paid more for legal services. Have you encountered any examples of a Quackwatch "this treatment has no evidence to support it" claim that has proven to be outright wrong? I can think of some examples where light of a specific frequency or electrical pulses applied in a specific way has been developed as a valid treatment for specific medical issues, but not the way that earlier proponents claimed their quackery treatments (using coloured lights or zappers) would cure all diseases.

I'm not a particular fan of any particular skeptic, but I feel that someone needs to do something to counter baseless claims. I think public schools should offer mandatory courses in rational thinking, to better protect citizens from scams.
 

sometexan84

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@Wishful @YippeeKi YOW !! @Learner1

Quackwatch

I'm not sure you guys should be so quick to turn others off to Quackwatch. Here's how it helped me...

The doctor in question, I was just doing basic research, found him on Quackwatch. Then I found his Texas Medical Board profile by looking up his license number. I found here that this doctor had been disciplined numerous times, and enough "dirt" to help in my decision... which was to cancel my upcoming apt and find another doctor.

And the Quack site gave me the clue to dig deeper. And idk about the other medical board websites, but this information is not indexed in Google Search Results, so it's documentation you will not find simply by doing a Google Search.

So for me, Quackwatch is just one of many relevant data points to help make decisions regarding which dr to see.

What I did recently to pick a doc included comparing their reviews from multiple sources, yrs of experience, and research on specialties.
 

sometexan84

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@Learner1

I respectfully disagree w/ a lot of that. Which is fine. Our experiences have just been very different. But I don't think any of us should speak super definitively about Doctors being this and that, when we all truly do have a very tiny sample size. Especially when considering most of us prob only see doctors w/in a small geographic area.

That's why these doctors sell supplements
Most doctors don't want to deal with ME/CFS patients

Come on man... :meh: you don't know that

Like, I'm definitely not saying that all doctors that sell supplements are bad. Or that all functional or internal med physicians are bad. In fact, I started this thread because I don't know, and because I wanted to ask about others experiences.
 

Learner1

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@Learner1

I respectfully disagree w/ a lot of that. Which is fine. Our experiences have just been very different. But I don't think any of us should speak super definitively about Doctors being this and that, when we all truly do have a very tiny sample size. Especially when considering most of us prob only see doctors w/in a small geographic area.




Come on man... :meh: you don't know that

Like, I'm definitely not saying that all doctors that sell supplements are bad. Or that all functional or internal med physicians are bad. In fact, I started this thread because I don't know, and because I wanted to ask about others experiences.
I respectfully disagree with you having been using functional medicine for 10 years and knowing many people who've had success with it. I think this is complex and needs a complex approach.

You may find the attached educational.
 

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Learner1

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Have you encountered any examples of a Quackwatch "this treatment has no evidence to support it" claim that has proven to be outright wrong
Yes, I have benefited from many treatments panned by Quackwatch that have quite a bit of excellent scientific evidence behind them. In fact, I have come to find that Quackwatch is against something, it's worth some serious consideration, with appropriate research, of course, to ensure its right for me. Barrett is against anything not driven by big Pharma and large medical systems.

And, unfortunately, those are not sources of help for patients with ME/CFS. So, one needs to look a bit outside the conventional box.

Personally, I find a lot of helpful in information in medical journal articles, not on blogs by someone with an axe to grind (or who may be paid by some very deep pockets...)
So for me, Quackwatch is just one of many relevant data points to help make decisions regarding which dr to see.

What I did recently to pick a doc included comparing their reviews from multiple sources, yrs of experience, and research on specialties.
That's not how I pick doctors. I started with that approach, and found that didn't work out so well.

I find out what tests and treatments they use, where they've been working, who they're affiliated with, any research or presentations they've given and word of mouth from other patients.
 

sometexan84

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I respectfully disagree with you having been using functional medicine for 10 years and knowing many people who've had success with it. I think this is complex and needs a complex approach.

You may find the attached educational.

Attachments

Will this be on the test? :nerd:

Just to clarify though...

You are saying that, from your experience, you now know that there is a single reason behind doctors selling supplements, and that you know this single reason? And that "most" doctors, the majority of them... in not just the US, but around the world.. "don't want to deal with ME/CFS patients"? That sounds like quite the claim.

Did you know that the reason guys in Texas have trucks is so they can pick up more girls? It's true. I've lived in Texas almost my entire life.
 

Learner1

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I really don't care why guys in Texas have trucks. At all.

Feel free to read the document. Perhaps you might find it helpful.

Doctors are in business. They have to earn income to pay the bills. They like to help patients. They offer help to patients by prescreening supplements that they think will help their patients. The supplement industry is like the Wild West. There are products that are contsminated, there are those made from cheap ingredients that aren't the most bioavailable irvin combinations that are not optimal. Though many of my doctors sell supplements, it is up to me to choose whether to buy them or not. And, based on what my doctors know my needs are, they realize that the products they have may not be the best fit for my needs, so they are fine with me making my own choices. As I have a vested interest in keeping my doctors in business so they can help me, I choose to buy a certain amount from them, where I feel the price is fair and they fit my needs, and I get to save on sales tax. Woohoo....:woot:


And, yes, most doctors aren't terribly invested in helping ME/CFS patients. That's how patients end up being ill for decades, unfortunately. There are very few who have the knowledge, experience, curiosity, and time to help us.
 

gbells

Improved ME from 2 to 6
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My integrative MD used to sell supplements at an inflated cost. Generally I avoided them unless I couldn't get them cheaper online. I agree about the conflict of interest. At the time she was big on herbal tinctures and Everclear type fasting products. She promised to help my CFS but ended up not helping and I quit after about two years. Now she's an "expert" MD working on Parsely.
 

Wishful

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Yes, I have benefited from many treatments panned by Quackwatch that have quite a bit of excellent scientific evidence behind them.

Could you provide examples of panned ones with excellent scientific evidence supporting them? I'd honestly like to know if the site is violating its claimed purpose, or if it's pursuing a political or personal agenda.
 

Likaloha

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I'm curious to know how much others here have spent on Supplements, through their physician?

And if your doctor DOES sell supplements, how can you trust them?

I started paying my doctor for supplements a few months ago, based on their advice. Hadn't thought much of it, tbh. But it only just NOW clicked in my head.

It's a crazy conflict of interest!

And it's SOOO much $$ they can be making from it. Not only are the supplements expensive, but you often end up paying again and again for "long-term treatment."

I recall a situation where my Dr said "We can do these supplements, or we can do Valtrex." And I swear to god, I remember her seeming oddly conflicted at that moment. When I told her I have no expertise and that she needs to recommend one or the other, she recommended the supplements. Later... so, those did nothing. Then I did Valtrex and it's actually been helping! Go figure

Those supplements cost me hundreds of dollars btw, paid to the dr office.

So then I Google it. Sure enough, the American Medical Association considers this an ethical violation.

From Consumer Reports:







There are so many other implications to all this, very relevant to everyone in this forum. Hoping others will voice their opinions and such on the matter.
I saw a pain doc one time and he wanted me to use his kind of CBS oil which was 240.00 dollars a month and buy two different instruments of torture from him on first visit. He also told me that he could cure my significant brain damage from 2002 case of near fatal West Nile meningoencephalitis with stem cell treatments and could mostly cure my fatigue and pain with strict diet and exercises four times a day! I ran far and ran fast from his office!
 

Learner1

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I saw a pain doc one time and he wanted me to use his kind of CBS oil which was 240.00 dollars a month and buy two different instruments of torture from him on first visit. He also told me that he could cure my significant brain damage from 2002 case of near fatal West Nile meningoencephalitis with stem cell treatments and could mostly cure my fatigue and pain with strict diet and exercises four times a day! I ran far and ran fast from his office!
Probably a good idea. Not everyone who hangs a shingle out is reputable. Always wise to do ones research. Hope you found better help elsewhere...
 
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