• Welcome to Phoenix Rising!

    Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of, and finding treatments for, complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia, long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.

    To become a member, simply click the Register button at the top right.

Does pantothenic acid (B5) 'stimulate' the adrenals?

Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
2,938
Yes, but I believe the diagram below (thank you bioinfo.org.cn/book/biochemistry/chapt17/sim4.htm) indicates that lysine is only responsible for the addition of the acetyl group--a process that might be slowed if there was no pantothenic acid to form the CoA in the first place. So we can also say that lysine is metabolized to activate acetyl-CoA--and that it is no replacement for pantothenic acid.

527a.jpg
Yes, and I find B5 helps me immensely, too. Thanks for the chart.
 

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,094
Newp. It knocks me out almost instantly. I don't get how that's possible but there you go.
Via the calcium metabolism. Ever since magnesium stopped working for me for Melatonin synthesis, anything calcium related does the trick.


The role of calcium in the regulation of melatonin biosynthesis in the retina

Abstract. Vertebrate retina rhythmically produces melatonin, a
hormon involved in the regulation of several intraocular processes cued
by environmental lighting conditions. Calcium ions play an important
role in the induction process of serotonin N-acetyltransferase (NAT), a
key regulatory enzyme in melatonin biosynthetic pathway. The
physiological, i.e. nocturnal, increase of NAT activity in the retina
depends on transmembrane transport of ca2+ through the L-type of
2+ voltage-sensitive calcium channels. It is suggested that Ca may
regulate NAT activity indirectly, by affecting the intracellular cyclic
AMP content, which is, in turn, critical in the regulation of melatonin
biosynthesis. The mode and mechanisms of ca2+ action on processes
governing melatonin formation in the retina are discussed.
 

Lolinda

J'aime nager dans le froid style Wim Hof.. 🏊‍♀️🙃
Messages
420
Location
Geneva, Switzerland
I just found this thread. I take 7mg B5 since months transdermally. Result: my daily caloric intake increased by a highly desired +1000 kcal (cronometer.com). Now I got curious about B5: during the last days, I tried higher doses of B5 a few times and found that it reduces my chills for hours!! (I am sleeping with 2 sheepwool blankets and 2 warm water bottles in summer... anyone else? :eek: :) :eek:). I am amazed. How can this work? In two parts:
@Gondwanaland and @Sidereal while B5 never made me sleepy, I noticed a calming effect, too, albeit a different one: during chills, I had a hasty & problem-focussed attitude :woot::nerd::thumbdown:, which turned into a feeling of calm happy power after using B5 :angel::p:angel:. As part of this, I noticed that on B5, I stopped having a "tunnel view" (seeing only the thing in my mind on which I focus), but have a broad view, with full details including also irrelevant details. This mental change is a classical feature of more versus less noradrenaline / sympathicus. Maybe, reduction of noradrenaline / sympathicus could make some contribution to your falling asleep from B5...?

A side note: It is wonderful that phoenixrising and healthrising are both so rich in scientific minds. Forums for other illnesses abound in low quality contributions. How come? Maybe its many brains running on noradrenaline? This "tunnel view" is good for science: disregarding all the irrelevant. And for survival in critical situations, too .... but if the problem is not resolved in one round of noradrenaline-high focussing, then I feel it is better for health to not be constantly noradrenaline high. I guess noradrenaline suppresses immunity differently than cortisol but generally stronger...?
 
Last edited:

Lolinda

J'aime nager dans le froid style Wim Hof.. 🏊‍♀️🙃
Messages
420
Location
Geneva, Switzerland
Licorice solid extract
Thanks for posting! :thumbsup:Did you or anyone ever come across a product that has zero sugar nor glycine?:sluggish:

Did anyone try "Adrenal Rebuillder"? (Dr Wilson) I am curious... It is made of adrenal glands, removed of hormones. I do believe that it makes sense to eat the organ you want to improve in yourself. This sounds like some silly stone age shamane stuff turned into new age saga then wrapped into :pill: and sold for :moneybag::moneybag::moneybag:... but I regard it ancient wisdom that we can explain today: think of omega 3, cholesterol and choline in brain (which are all important nutrients for your brain), think of choline in liver (which is good against fatty liver), or, eating bone marrow increases wbc, eat bone broth for calcium, ... , or gelatine made of cartilage for your cartilage.
... what do we get from eating adrenals?
 
Last edited:

Jigsaw

Senior Member
Messages
420
Location
UK
@dannybex @heapsreal

B5 combines with cholesterol to produce pregnenolone, the first adrenal hormone. One end-point of preg is cortisol. Cortisol levels peak (in a normal system) first thing in the morning (it's what wakes us up every day, aided and abetted by light-stimulated hormones, too) and tail off gradually throughout the day until they zero off late in the evening. That's what makes us start yawning and wanting to go to bed.

Dannybex, whoever told you to avoid B5 because your adrenals weren't coping was misinformed. Supplmentation of 500-1000mg B5 in the mornings is a crucial element of adrenal rehab.

If, however, you take B5 in the afternoon or later, you will raise your cortisol levels, lie wide awake, physically exhausted but with your mind refusing to switch off. It's profoundly frustrating.

This info widely available in endocrinology textbooks, re: cortisol levels, and dozens of alternative/ nutritional/ natural/ orthomolecular health books, studies, etc., re: B5 and cholestrol being the source of pregnenolone production.

I know this from working in private practice alongside a thyroid and adrenal doc who told everyone to take their hydrocortisone split evenly throughout the day with the final dose taken at bedtime, myself included.

None of us could sleep, so I did some research and leant about the cortisol day curve. Doc had us all on sleeping pills, which I felt was wrong. Found the relevant info, we told everyone to take their hydro no later than 4pm (and B5 earlier than that), and we all slept again.

You DO need B5 for hypoadrenalism/ nervous exhaustion/ adrenal burnout, just don't take it later than 1pm ish, and preferably, take it after breakfast so that you're fitting in with the normal daily pattern of cortisol production.


Hope that helps !
 
Last edited:

dannybex

Senior Member
Messages
3,564
Location
Seattle
@dannybex @heapsreal

B5 combines with cholesterol to produce pregnenolone, the first adrenal hormone. One end-point of preg is cortisol. Cortisol levels peak (in a normal system) first thing in the morning (it's what wakes us up every day, aided and abetted by light-stimulated hormones, too) and tail off gradually throughout the day until they zero off late in the evening. That's what makes us start yawning and wanting to go to bed.

Dannybex, whoever told you to avoid B5 because your adrenals weren't coping was misinformed. Supplmentation of 500-1000mg B5 in the mornings is a crucial element of adrenal rehab.

If, however, you take B5 in the afternoon or later, you will raise your cortisol levels, lie wide awake, physically exhausted but with your mind refusing to switch off. It's profoundly frustrating.

This info widely available in endocrinology textbooks, re: cortisol levels, and dozens of alternative/ nutritional/ natural/ orthomolecular health books, studies, etc., re: B5 and cholestrol being the source of pregnenolone production.

I know this from working in private practice alongside a thyroid and adrenal doc who told everyone to take their hydrocortisone split evenly throughout the day with the final dose taken at bedtime, myself included.

None of us could sleep, so I did some research and leant about the cortisol day curve. Doc had us all on sleeping pills, which I felt was wrong. Found the relevant info, we told everyone to take their hydro no later than 4pm (and B5 earlier than that), and we all slept again.

But that's the point -- I was putting out too much cortisol in the late mornings -- it was too high by NOON -- so she told me to make sure not to take it. Plus, many people take B5 for acne -- oily, greasy, acne-prone sking. My skin is already on the dry side, so if I take even 100 mgs or so, my skin dries out big time.
 

Jigsaw

Senior Member
Messages
420
Location
UK
But that's the point -- I was putting out too much cortisol in the late mornings -- it was too high by NOON -- so she told me to make sure not to take it. Plus, many people take B5 for acne -- oily, greasy, acne-prone sking. My skin is already on the dry side, so if I take even 100 mgs or so, my skin dries out big time.
If your cortisol isn't peaking until later in the day than between c.4-7am, then you have a delayed cortisol curve.

Some people peak even later than noon, and yes, that also causes insomnia. It's a delayed cortisol curve, causing a delayed surge of cortisol. Essentially, adrenal activity isn't kicking in at the usual time and everythig gets shunted forwards by several hours. Adrenal exhaustion is usually the cause, and they need supporting, not ignoring.

We treated it at the clinic by giving people hydrocortisone in 4 divided doses, top-loaded to mimic the normal cortisol day curve.

This regulates the adrenal output, and the delay is corrected. If the adrenals are supplied with either hydrocortisone, or B5 in the early morning, there is no need for the adrenals to surge later than is normal and the delay is corrected. Taking B5 in the mornings won't exacerbate your adrenal surge.

Dry skin is commonly due to a testosterone or an oestrogen deficiency, or a cortisol excess in relation to the amount of sex hormones being produced. The adrenals also produce testosterone and oestrogen. Women's adrenals produce smaller amounts of testost than men's do, and men's adrenals produce less than their testes, but it's still a significant amount. Men's adrenals produce smaller amounts of oestrogen than women's adrenals do, and women's ovaries produce more oestrogen than the adrebals, but again, it is still a significant amount.

The quickest way to replace missing or lacking levels of testost and oestrogen in both men and women is to supplement with DHEA. It is the most abundant steroid hormone in a healthy body, and it is the immediate precursor for both sex hormones. The standard dose is 25mg/d for women and 50mg/d for men.

Vitamin C is also extremely useful in nourishing poor adrenals, and again, should be taken earlier rather than later in the day as it can also mimic the same effects of an adrenal surge if taken later, which will cause insomnia.

You might want to have a look at the role of iodine in human health. It is needed by every cell, every function, every hormone and every gland, including the adrenals.

I have come to understand recently that a fundamental iodine deficiency might well lie at the very root of the cause of both hypothyroidism and hypoadrenalism. Because of this, I started supplementing with Lugol's in late March, and once I hit 50mg/d, I found I didn't need my last dose of hydro anymore. I've managed to reduce it significantly. I've also been able to reduce my thyroid meds., equally significantly.

20% of the body's total iodine is stored and used by the skin. Dry skin and inability to sweat are signs of skin-iodine deficiency, because the sweat glands and the sebaceous glands both need iodine in order to secrete their respective substances.
 
Last edited:

Lolinda

J'aime nager dans le froid style Wim Hof.. 🏊‍♀️🙃
Messages
420
Location
Geneva, Switzerland
b5 helps sleep because:
In humans, it was reported that PA participated in the formation of melatonin [2

I always had a mild sleep effect from b5 taken an hour before bed, but sometimes (maybe when taken earlier?) also a detrimental one: needing long time to sleep. Now I took b5 just at the moment when going to bed:
- fast falling asleep
- more sleep (highly desired, I slept too little)
- even when I wake up at night, I stay sleepy and my eyes see things darker

I developed sleep problems on b1 during the last weeks, needing often 1-2h to fall asleep - inspite of taking no horse doses but merely the rda. Thank you guys for telling your b5➞sleep experiences. Your comments were my inspiration to find this sleep fix:

I must take B5 (I take Pantethine actually) before bed because it makes me sleepy, and apparently I am the only one with this reaction :confused:

Newp. It knocks me out almost instantly. I don't get how that's possible but there you go.

I'm baffled by that!
Hmmm....I must investigate :nerd:

Still no idea why pantethine makes you sleep, but if you're surging later than the early hours of the morning, the delayed cortisol curve applies to you too.
 
Last edited:

adreno

PR activist
Messages
4,841
B5 and pantethine are involved in the production of acetylcholine. Acetylcholine stimulates cortisol release. Acetylcholine is also a mediator of the parasympathetic nervous system, which is probably why some find it relaxing/sedating. Especially if you are normally wired up on norepinephrine, which acetylcholine inhibits.
 

dannybex

Senior Member
Messages
3,564
Location
Seattle
But high levels of acetycholine can be extremely stimulating. It's my understanding (as noted on the first page) that if one's acetylcholinesterase levels are low, then acetylcholine can build up.
 

adreno

PR activist
Messages
4,841
But high levels of acetycholine can be extremely stimulating.
Well, it is somewhat stimulating to me. I take pantethine in the morning for this reason. But as I said, I suppose that if someone is normally wired up on NE – with anxiety, racing mind, tachycardia and sleeplessness – then acetylcholine boosters can probably seem quite relaxing. Acetylcholine increases wakefulness and is likely to give you more light (REM) sleep, with lucid dreaming, but at least it is possible to get some rest. It is simply impossible to sleep when NE is raging, especially if cortisol is simultaneously low.
 

GreenMachineX

Senior Member
Messages
362
Bumping an old thread.
@adreno @dannybex @Lolinda @Gondwanaland @Jigsaw
If y’all could help me make sense of this and give me some suggestions to fix it...
I’ve found pantethenic acid at doses around 100mg drop my blood pressure about 10-20 points systolic and diastolic, which is great for me since mine runs a little high, but, I wake up at 2-3am wide awake and can’t get back to sleep. I’m taking it with breakfast though. Perhaps I should try it with dinner then? Or something I can take to counter it’s effects?
Thanks in advance!