Does anyone on here sleep normally?

[Alvin2]

Didn't read the thread but sleep normally, if that ever happens to me hell will freeze over. No more climate change then, though an ice age will take over and we are all in trouble

 

[NelliePledge]

Does anyone who uses an activity/sleep tracker find that they are in REM for around 50% of their sleep I've read that REM is high in small children but it reduces with age and an hour a night is sufficient. I'm getting a lot more than that and in my 50s. Also since I've started using the tracker my deep sleep has only ever been as high as 1h 40 mins usually an hour or less. I'm wondering whether to raise this with my GP. I've tried stopping my low doses of amitriptyline and pregabalinto see if that makes a difference but it didn't. although I've decided they weren't helping and contributing to morning sluggishness so I've stopped taking them. I'm just taking paracetamol for pain as well as turmeric and magnesium. I want to give melatonin a try as my problem is around getting to sleep.

 

[lansbergen]

No sleeping problems anymore.

 

[arewenearlythereyet]

Does anyone who uses an activity/sleep tracker find that they are in REM for around 50% of their sleep I've read that REM is high in small children but it reduces with age and an hour a night is sufficient. I'm getting a lot more than that and in my 50s. Also since I've started using the tracker my deep sleep has only ever been as high as 1h 40 mins usually an hour or less. I'm wondering whether to raise this with my GP. I've tried stopping my low doses of amitriptyline and pregabalinto see if that makes a difference but it didn't. although I've decided they weren't helping and contributing to morning sluggishness so I've stopped taking them. I'm just taking paracetamol for pain as well as turmeric and magnesium. I want to give melatonin a try as my problem is around getting to sleep.

Yes I've been looking at mine and my deep sleep is lower than average and rem higher than average (judging by the benchmark on Fitbit) my deep sleep is regularly below an hour and hasn't got above an hour and a half despot my average sleep being over 7 hrs.

Interesting

 

[NelliePledge]

thanks AWNTY good knowing someone else has similar sleep tracking results it would be good if we could find out more about what it means but I dont expect to get any help with that anytime soon from my gp

 

[arewenearlythereyet]

thanks AWNTY good knowing someone else has similar sleep tracking results it would be good if we could find out more about what it means but I dont expect to get any help with that anytime soon from my gp

Yes doubtful this will cause any interest with my gp either. I saw on the news just now that they are doing some big sleep study in Canada so I guess it's something that is poorly understood in terms of proper long term scientific studies.

have you noticed any correlation in how you feel the day after a low deep sleep sleep? Mine is so variable that it's difficult to tell so far.

 

[NelliePledge]

Yes it seems to vary inexplicably from one night to the next other than if I've been more active I tend to struggle to even more to get to sleep. It doesn't seem to be predictable that if I sleep longer I get more deep sleep. I do get more REM from sleeping longer. I always feel rough in the morning. A bit less so since I've cut out my low dose Amitryptyline and Pregabalin. i read somewhere that REM uses up a lot of energy and during deep sleep body does its physical repairs so I can see that ties up with ME symptoms & sleep is unrefreshing.

 

[arewenearlythereyet]

Yes it seems to vary inexplicably from one night to the next other than if I've been more active I tend to struggle to even more to get to sleep. It doesn't seem to be predictable that if I sleep longer I get more deep sleep. I do get more REM from sleeping longer. I always feel rough in the morning. A bit less so since I've cut out my low dose Amitryptyline and Pregabalin. i read somewhere that REM uses up a lot of energy and during deep sleep body does its physical repairs so I can see that ties up with ME symptoms & sleep is unrefreshing.

That was my thought as well. I wonder whether it's like PEM ....in that after a particularly bad sleep with lots of rem and not much deep sleep you get a delayed reaction 48 hrs later? its certainly showing a high variation in the quality of sleep over time. I wonder where fitbit gets their benchmark data from?

 

[Aerowallah]

Relate to a lot of this! Wicked insomnia after starting supplements / precursors from a naturopath made me think a lot about sleep in the early days. Bottom line, I noticed (with a sleep log) that an undefinable cycle of better sleep / worse sleep linked to detox was repeating in the background (several days or a week on, several days off). At first, I related my sleep to the sleep aids I tried, but now I know this sleep rhythm operates under the surface, and I can work with it or against it.

After four years of trialling, this simple list has really improved overall sleep and healing. As you can see it has a lot to do with helping detox...

Coffee enemas--stopped days of all-night crippling insomnia
Magnesium malate or glycinate (otherwise I avoided most supps in the early days as they could imbalance me further)
"Trace Minerals" electrolytes
Diatomaceous earth --this was huge! Adds at least an hour to my sleep every night
Methylation supps--tricky here, but more than 500 mg methylcobalamin makes my sleep worse, 500 or less better. Also, gotta watch those cofactors...
Live culture kefir--hard to relate to sleep directly, but more for overall well being and gut health; initially caused histamine itching that messed up sleep for awhile, but smaller amounts and B12 have eliminated that in time

Even with all of the above, I still have these downcycles of more fractured sleep (hard to get to sleep, get back to sleep, or even remembering if I was just sleeping!) which feels like my old friend elevated glutamate (calm, but wide awake and alert) which usually means I have overdone something. I first felt elevated glutamate when I took a supp with too much taurine for too long that my liver couldn't clear fast enough. Now I think it has something to do with my stress response to cleansing. I have elevated metals among other things.

It was when I started keeping a sleep log in the first couple years that I realized the sleep aids I thought were working (like melatonin, phosphatidyl, lactium, valerian, benadryl etc etc etc), really only made a difference when I was on the "off cycle" of my own multi-day detox rhythm. None of them worked consistently.

During the "on cycle" when sleep is more challenging, the following made it worse--high glutamate foods, high copper foods, eating too much protein too late, staying up past midnight when they say sleep quality degrades.

Weirdly, the most INFALLIBLE test I had that I was in a more excitable / glutamate state that would make sleep dodgy was: 1. annoying commercial jingles would bang around in my head and I couldn't let them go...2. I couldn't yawn if you paid me. Glutamate! (Hormone test confirmed this and nothing else was elevated.) Breathing can help. Inducing yawning during the day helps reset my energy when I am under stress.

Funny, during the worst times, boring, distracting tv (and not brooding about sleeping) was the BEST sleep aid!!

Good luck everyone!

 

[valentinelynx]

Does anyone who uses an activity/sleep tracker find that they are in REM for around 50% of their sleep I've read that REM is high in small children but it reduces with age and an hour a night is sufficient. I'm getting a lot more than that and in my 50s. Also since I've started using the tracker my deep sleep has only ever been as high as 1h 40 mins usually an hour or less. I'm wondering whether to raise this with my GP. I've tried stopping my low doses of amitriptyline and pregabalinto see if that makes a difference but it didn't. although I've decided they weren't helping and contributing to morning sluggishness so I've stopped taking them. I'm just taking paracetamol for pain as well as turmeric and magnesium. I want to give melatonin a try as my problem is around getting to sleep.

I find it hard to believe that you are actually having that much REM sleep (unless you are sleeping very very little). Drugs like amitriptyline and pregabalin would be expected to decrease the amount of REM sleep you have. The sleep trackers detection of REM is probably based on changes in your heart rate, which is a pretty poor way to identify REM sleep. To really know if you are in REM would require monitoring your muscle tone, brain waves, and eye movements.

Having little "deep sleep" is highly likely, however. Stage 3 and 4 sleep is reduced in ME/CFS and fibromyalgia. You can look into "alpha intrusion" to learn more.

Melatonin works pretty well, in my experience, and is quite safe.

If you want to know what's really happening with your sleep, you need a real sleep study. This can be done at home now with a portable device. Perhaps your doctor can order a home sleep study for you?

 

[perchance dreamer]

I find it hard to believe that you are actually having that much REM sleep (unless you are sleeping very very little). Drugs like amitriptyline and pregabalin would be expected to decrease the amount of REM sleep you have. The sleep trackers detection of REM is probably based on changes in your heart rate, which is a pretty poor way to identify REM sleep. To really know if you are in REM would require monitoring your muscle tone, brain waves, and eye movements.

Having little "deep sleep" is highly likely, however. Stage 3 and 4 sleep is reduced in ME/CFS and fibromyalgia. You can look into "alpha intrusion" to learn more.

Melatonin works pretty well, in my experience, and is quite safe.

If you want to know what's really happening with your sleep, you need a real sleep study. This can be done at home now with a portable device. Perhaps your doctor can order a home sleep study for you?

Home sleep studies test for apnea, but I'm not aware of home studies that provide EEG data or electrodes to test for restless legs. I think you would need those components to get the most thorough look at your sleep quality.

There was one company in Austin that worked with local sleep doctors and would come to your home and hook you up for all the testing of a traditional lab sleep study, but I think they are out of business. I doubt this is a common service.

 

[sharks]

I started getting deep sleep (with the help of benedryl). The pink puffyness in my eyes goes down every morning.

I wonder how long I have to sleep with taking something before my body's normal functions start kicking in.

 

[arewenearlythereyet]

I find it hard to believe that you are actually having that much REM sleep (unless you are sleeping very very little). Drugs like amitriptyline and pregabalin would be expected to decrease the amount of REM sleep you have. The sleep trackers detection of REM is probably based on changes in your heart rate, which is a pretty poor way to identify REM sleep. To really know if you are in REM would require monitoring your muscle tone, brain waves, and eye movements.

Having little "deep sleep" is highly likely, however. Stage 3 and 4 sleep is reduced in ME/CFS and fibromyalgia. You can look into "alpha intrusion" to learn more.

Melatonin works pretty well, in my experience, and is quite safe.

If you want to know what's really happening with your sleep, you need a real sleep study. This can be done at home now with a portable device. Perhaps your doctor can order a home sleep study for you?

I'm not sure the NHS would do this but I could always ask. Following your advice I read up a bit on alpha wave intrusion, seems it's our old friends cytokines reducing gaba....or I think this is what the article below said.

https://www.healthrising.org/blog/2015/08/31/zeroing-in-on-the-sleep-problems-in-fibromyalgia/


I think I may try melatonin though and see how this improves deep sleep. I'm a little wary about any drug that plays around with brain chemistry. I'm also going to get some prescription Amber sunglasses for wearing at night see if this helps first.

For interest here is this months sleep showing my deep sleep. By my reckoning I should be getting between 1 and 1.5 hrs to be "normal". Looks quite random to me? This is fairly typical for me although June has been pants due to high pollen count.

 

[valentinelynx]

Home sleep studies test for apnea, but I'm not aware of home studies that provide EEG data or electrodes to test for restless legs. I think you would need those components to get the most thorough look at your sleep quality.

There was one company in Austin that worked with local sleep doctors and would come to your home and hook you up for all the testing of a traditional lab sleep study, but I think they are out of business. I doubt this is a common service.

Hmm. Yes, I've been out of the sleep research business for awhile. There were portable sleep data collection devices being made back in the '80s (30 years ago!) so I assumed they were more common now. Of course, the big money is in sleep apnea diagnosis, which doesn't require full sleep staging.

However, I did find at least one company that does offer a full "polysomnogram" (sleep staging with EEG (brain waves), EOG (eye movements) and EMG (muscle tone) as well as respiratory parameters. Whether one could get insurance to cover this, I don't know. Might be easier to get the standard sleep study in the lab. The company that offers the "Comprehensive Type 2 Home Sleep Test" (Type II means a complete sleep study that is unattended by a technician) is AXG Sleep Diagnostics LLC located in the Sacramento (California) area.