Do you think appropriate vaccines could prevent ME/CFS/SEID

[sscobalt93]

I think the problem with nuclear power is not that there are frequent problems but that if even a single accident occurs at the wrong place consequences can be devastating.

as for pharmaceuticals,i think they are still semi-safe. There are still a lot of drug recalls and drugs being taken from the market because they turned out to be unsafe. I took a drug a few years ago that was later recalled because it caused organ failures in some cases. This is not always a 'scientific' problem. Sometimes the adverse effects were well known beforehand but the drug manufacturer choose to hide the evidence. I also read a lot of people reporting that a drug permanently damaged their health but officially little is known about these type of reactions.

I've been on a lot of psych meds at one point in my life. Not because I wanted to, but because i was made to. I was homeless and the only place for me to go was a psych clinic. Meds may be safe but they weren't for me. They wrecked my liver. My enzymes are good now, but in the past(recently) they were sky high. I've gotten jaundice from medications. These just a few reasons I'm against medications in general. They need to be a last resort. People(who aren't chronically sick) could feel a lot better just by changing their diet and drinking plenty of water throughout the day instead of trying psych meds first or high blood pressure medications

 

[msf]

Ian, I don't think you meant cell-mediated immunity - this is quite different from the humoral response, which is what we are talking about re: vaccines and 'natural' immunity. If your contention is that the 'killed' vaccines don't confer the same antibody responses that real diseases do, does that mean you favour 'live' vaccines over 'killed' ones. After all, these ARE real diseases, so surely the response should be the same?

The trouble with the anti-vaccine people's arguments is that they don't provide and plausible (as in, it's plausible that a majority of people would vote for this) alternatives to vaccines.

 

[sscobalt93]

Ian, I don't think you meant cell-mediated immunity - this is quite different from the humoral response, which is what we are talking about re: vaccines and 'natural' immunity. If your contention is that the 'killed' vaccines don't confer the same antibody responses that real diseases do, does that mean you favour 'live' vaccines over 'killed' ones. After all, these ARE real diseases, so surely the response should be the same?

The trouble with the anti-vaccine people's arguments is that they don't provide and plausible (as in, it's plausible that a majority of people would vote for this) alternatives to vaccines.

They do, but most people discredit it from not believing it. For example we could all benefit from mega doses of Vitamin C. Vitamin C is a huge preventer from just about anything. Many people who are against vaccines don't just discredit it and not do anything to protect their immune system. Antioxidants play a huge role in prevention of disease/virus. But the main stream will not budge their stance because there are lack of studies on these antioxidants. I mean there are studies on Vitamin C, but they usually discredit the use of them because there is no money to be made from a natural substance(other than the labs that can synthetically make it, but its not a lot of money).

For example Vitamin C has been shown to be better than the first generation HIV medications. Very high doses that is.

 

[Ian]

f your contention is that the 'killed' vaccines don't confer the same antibody responses that real diseases do, does that mean you favour 'live' vaccines over 'killed' ones.

No they do not. You don't need a 'booster' if you actually come into contact with a disease. Also there is a lot more to the immune response than simply antibodies. And I am not in favor of live virus vaccines, if you look at the cataclysm in India you will see why.

http://www.issuesinmedicalethics.org/index.php/ijme/article/view/110/1065

 

[msf]

I don't think there is enough evidence for Vitamin C to convince the majority to stop vaccinating their children.

 

[msf]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1906500/

 

[sscobalt93]

I don't think there is enough evidence for Vitamin C to convince the majority to stop vaccinating their children.

Exactly what I have stated. There needs to be more studies because as of right now its all acedotal. Have you ever heard of Linus Pauling? He is a biochemist who won the nobel peace prize. He has lots of literature on Vitamin C. He points out that most mammals produce extremely high amounts of vitamin C(compared to what we ingest) and animals do not get sick near as often as humans do. <- That is just from observation. I never just said Vitamin C is the only answer, but lots of Antioxidants will help keep the immune system in tip top shape. Just think about all the people that survived the plagues. Their immune systems were strong. Yeah they weren't taking high doses of vitamin C but they weren't eating junk foods, staying inside all the time, and were active.

 

[msf]

'Despite decades of high vaccination coverage, pertussis has remained endemic and reemerged as a public health problem in many countries in the past 2 decades. Waning of vaccine-induced immunity has been cited as one of the reasons for the observed epidemiologic trend. A review of the published data on duration of immunity reveals estimates that infection-acquired immunity against pertussis disease wanes after 4–20 years and protective immunity after vaccination wanes after 4–12 years. Further research into the rate of waning of vaccine-acquired immunity will help determine the optimal timing and frequency of booster immunizations and their role in pertussis control.'

From this article: http://journals.lww.com/pidj/fulltext/2005/05001/duration_against_pertussis_after.11.aspx

 

[msf]

If the evidence is so far only anecdotal, then surely you agree that, at this point in time, there is not sufficient evidence to support Vitamin C being used in place of vaccination. It seems to me that you have already decided what the outcome of those further studies will be.

 

[sscobalt93]

'Despite decades of high vaccination coverage, pertussis has remained endemic and reemerged as a public health problem in many countries in the past 2 decades. Waning of vaccine-induced immunity has been cited as one of the reasons for the observed epidemiologic trend. A review of the published data on duration of immunity reveals estimates that infection-acquired immunity against pertussis disease wanes after 4–20 years and protective immunity after vaccination wanes after 4–12 years. Further research into the rate of waning of vaccine-acquired immunity will help determine the optimal timing and frequency of booster immunizations and their role in pertussis control.'

From this article: http://journals.lww.com/pidj/fulltext/2005/05001/duration_against_pertussis_after.11.aspx

There is a reason not to wanting the vaccines. Autoimmune conditions are on a rise. The toxic fillers in them(which you never seem to address) are also not what is needed by the body. If people are to get a vaccine they should make sure they do not have any autoimmune conditions. They need to be perfectly healthy. But people just get them despite without any precautions.

Also the doctor who linked Autism to vaccines was recently found dead in a lake. This happened very recently. Seems a bit odd that someone would just kill him..

 

[msf]

How about just getting rid of the toxic fillers?

Hmm, we had a thread about the death on PR, and I predicted that the anti-vaccine people would see this as a conspiracy. I didn't know suicide had been ruled out yet.

 

[sscobalt93]

If the evidence is so far only anecdotal, then surely you agree that, at this point in time, there is not sufficient evidence to support Vitamin C being used in place of vaccination. It seems to me that you have already decided what the outcome of those further studies will be.

And there won't be because there is no money in vitamin C. But if you can find a vaccine for a virus then you're in the big bucks. It comes down more to how much money they can make than looking for safer solutions. Vitamin C is becoming very prevalent nowadays there is even a Vitamin C foundation to support the awareness that it can treat many ailments. I mean if MD's are using it for IV to treat things, why not believe its power? Personal experiences can be better than clinical trials. Just look at all the lawsuits medications are getting that had 'evidence' they are good.

 

[msf]

Anyway, you guys haven't convinced me, and I haven't convinced you either, so perhaps we should just drop it.

 

[sscobalt93]

How about just getting rid of the toxic fillers?

Hmm, we had a thread about the death on PR, and I predicted that the anti-vaccine people would see this as a conspiracy. I didn't know suicide had been ruled out yet.

I wont hold my breath on companies getting rid of toxic fillers. Why are they in there in the first place? Can you provide that information, because I have yet to know a reason why they are in there. I am being completely serious.


Why would this man commit suicide? He had no reason to. Vaccines are declining. Meaning less money. I doubt very highly it was a suicide. Don't put it past Big Pharma

 

[sscobalt93]

Anyway, you guys haven't convinced me, and I haven't convinced you either, so perhaps we should just drop it.

Exactly. Have you done research on the negative aspect of vaccines? I mean more than just the CDC website?

 

[msf]

No. Have you done research on the positive aspects of vaccines?

 

[sscobalt93]

No. Have you done research on the positive aspects of vaccines?

Yes I have. It has prevented lots of disease. I am aware of that. I am aware that no one has gotten leprosy of small pox or anything like that. But I have also read that Autism is on a rise, that by 2020 it is estimated that everyone will know someone with Autism(yes this can be a lot of factors, heavy metals are a big belief of the cause). Autoimmune conditions are on a serious rise.

We may be preventing a disease but we are essentially playing God. We are overpopulated(sad to say) and we are all very close to one another. We are getting sick because we are living to modern for our own good. Most of us do not get enough fresh air and this is why we are all getting sick. The vaccines may prevent an illness but they are also making other conditions worse.

 

[msf]

So is your solution just to let preventable diseases kill us off until there is the sustainable number of people again? Hmm, I don't see it being very popular with the masses...

 

[redaxe]

Thing is about Vitamin C. There's been countless threads on this forum about people trying it and generally very few people get a noticeable sustained benefit from it. If it was the miracle cure that people tout it as then we would threads popping up all over the place of people that have had ME/CFS for years or decades yelling 'I'm cured!'

It's terribly expensive and after all this time no CFS specialist has publicly endorsed it and nobody as far as I know has provided a workable treatment plan that encompasses dosage, frequency of dosage and how long treatment must continue for.

And what is the mechanism of action? How does vitamin C kill EBV, HHV6 or CMV or Borellia? How does it kill the cells that those viruses are hiding in... I'm sure it has a range of benefits but the viruses associated with CFS/ME are that well adapted to suppressing our immune system I really think the answer is more complex than a vitamin deficiency.

But if I'm happy to be corrected if I'm wrong.

 

[sscobalt93]

I think this is the last time I am going to post in this thread, we are running around in circles..

Vitamin C is more of a preventative measure. It keeps your immune system healthy. A healthy immune system is what is needed to keep these viruses at bay. Now high doses of vitamin C is not natural so it may hyper drive our immune system(this is all my own personal thought). Vaccines are meant for a preventative measure. Once you have the illness it's a lot harder to treat. But if you can prevent it from happening then you are golden.

Side note to vitamin C, once you take high doses for a period of time and you stop immediately without titrating down you can get 'rebound' scurvy. I have experienced it myself. I was taking 6 grams a day and then I stopped. The moment I stopped I got sick with a sore throat. That never happens. I got back on the vitamin c and then stopped again after a week and the same thing happened.