Do Gods in White Exist?

SWAlexander

Senior Member
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2,149
They are the foundation of the system.
Hi Rufus,

My main concern is the alarming number of medical professionals who neglect to stay informed, particularly when it comes to upholding the Hippocratic oath: do no harm.

A lack of up-to-date scientific knowledge can lead to irreversible harm. I've personally experienced this, having been prescribed fluoroquinolones multiple times, even in combination with vancomycin. I'm now left dealing with irreversible damage and long-term side effects.

Unfortunately, trying to raise these concerns with doctors often feels pointless - they either dismiss the risks or are unaware of them altogether.
 

Viala

Senior Member
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792
My main concern is the alarming number of medical professionals who neglect to stay informed, particularly when it comes to upholding the Hippocratic oath: do no harm.

In their minds there may be no harm, if they are educated this way, they become blind if something goes wrong. They rather blame patients. Admitting that they did something wrong could make them sued and cost them their career.

They believe pharmaceutical representatives and lobbyists more, I think because it's strongly backed up by research and money, and it's more convenient to think this way, to keep their education-career-integrity intact. It can be a psychological mechanism. Starting to doubt conventional medicine could undermine who they are and a lot of years of education and effort. Most people do not like to admit that they made a mistake, let alone a mistake that can cost them everything. It may be just easier to pretend that everything is ok.
 

Viala

Senior Member
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792
Yes, this is truly disheartening. We're witnessing how the Declaration of Geneva is gradually losing its significance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Geneva

They basically have a conflict of interest, just like pharmaceutical companies. Still, it wasn't always like that, something has changed. People are more greedy now, less empathetic, or medical law changed, medical education changed? Putting them in a position to protect their profession first?
 

Viala

Senior Member
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792
Should patients tolerate unethical behavior from medical professionals, or is it our responsibility to confront it by reporting the issue to the medical board?

That would be like 90% of doctors reported. I am still baffled at why they are unethical in the first place. One would think that having a very respected profession and a lot of money would make them nicier and better people.
 

southwestforests

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This from a decade ago comes to mind,
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/11/doctors-tell-all-and-its-bad/380785/

Doctors Tell All—and It’s Bad
A crop of books by disillusioned physicians reveals a corrosive doctor-patient relationship at the heart of our health-care crisis.
By Meghan O’Rourke
November 2014 Issue

But this essay isn’t about how I was right and my doctors were wrong. It’s about why it has become so difficult for so many doctors and patients to communicate with each other. Ours is a technologically proficient but emotionally deficient and inconsistent medical system that is best at treating acute, not chronic, problems: for every instance of expert treatment, skilled surgery, or innovative problem-solving, there are countless cases of substandard care, overlooked diagnoses, bureaucratic bungling, and even outright antagonism between doctor and patient. For a system that invokes “patient-centered care” as a mantra, modern medicine is startlingly inattentive—at times actively indifferent—to patients’ needs.

To my surprise, I’ve now learned that patients aren’t alone in feeling that doctors are failing them. Behind the scenes, many doctors feel the same way. And now some of them are telling their side of the story. A recent crop of books offers a fascinating and disturbing ethnography of the opaque land of medicine, told by participant-observers wearing lab coats. What’s going on is more dysfunctional than I imagined in my worst moments. Although we’re all aware of pervasive health-care problems and the coming shortage of general practitioners, few of us have a clear idea of how truly disillusioned many doctors are with a system that has shifted profoundly over the past four decades. These inside accounts should be compulsory reading for doctors, patients, and legislators alike. They reveal a crisis rooted not just in rising costs but in the very meaning and structure of care. Even the most frustrated patient will come away with respect for how difficult doctors’ work is. She may also emerge, as I did, pledging (in vain) that she will never again go to a doctor or a hospital.
...
The alarming part is how fast doctors’ empathy wanes. Studies show that it plunges in the third year of medical school; that’s exactly when initially eager and idealistic students start seeing patients on rotation. The problem, Danielle Ofri writes, isn’t some elemental Hobbesian lack of sympathy; students (like the doctors they will become) are overworked and overtired, and they realize that there is too much work to be done in too little time. And because the medical-education system largely ignores the emotional side of health care, as Ofri emphasizes, doctors end up distancing themselves unthinkingly from what they are seeing. One of her anecdotes suggests what they’re up against: an intern, handed a dying baby whose parents don’t want to see her, is curtly told to note the infant’s time of death; with no empty room in sight, the doctor slips into a supply closet, torn between keeping an eye on her watch and soothing the baby. “It’s no wonder that empathy gets trounced in the actual world of clinical medicine,” Ofri concludes; empathy gets in the way of what doctors need to survive.

Yet empathy is anything but a frill: not only is it crucial to doctors’ humanity and patients’ dignity, it can be key to medical efficacy. The rate of severe diabetes complications in patients of doctors who rate high on a standard empathy scale, Ofri notes, is a remarkable 40 percent lower than in patients with low-empathy doctors. “This is comparable,” she points out, “to the benefits seen with the most intensive medical therapy for diabetes.”

You may be wondering why the rise of patients’ rights in the 1970s and ’80s, hailed as a revolutionary advance in health care, hasn’t served us better.
...
Medicine today values intervention far more than it values care. Gawande writes that for a clinician, “nothing is more threatening to who you think you are than a patient with a problem you cannot solve.” The result is that all too often, “medicine fails the people it is supposed to help.” The old doctor-knows-best ethos was profoundly flawed. But it was rooted in an ethic of care for the whole person, perhaps because physicians, less pressed for time, knew their patients better. Danielle Ofri notes that it was the paternalistic old doctors, still hanging around her medical school wearing “starched shirts [and] conservative ties,” who taught her the art of respecting her patients’ individuality: “For them, approaching the bedside of a patient was a sacred act.” One day she had a class with an intimidating cardiothoracic surgeon. To her surprise, he was as tender toward his wards as he was gruff toward his students, who, he insisted, should always seat themselves at the level of the patient or lower. “They are the ones who are sick,” he emphasized, “and they are the ones running this interview, not you.”

In the course of our lives, most of us will urgently need care, sometimes when we least expect it. Currently, we must seek it in a system that excels at stripping our medical shepherds of their humanity, leaving them shells of the doctors (and people) they want to be, and us alone in the sterile rooms they manage. What makes our predicament so puzzling, and what may offer hope, is that nearly all of us want a different outcome. I used to think that change was necessary for the patient’s sake. Now I see that it’s necessary for the doctor’s sake, too.
 
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SWAlexander

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corrosive doctor-patient relationship
It’s ultimately the patient who has the power to challenge and change a neglectful or dysfunctional medical system.
I’ve done it twice in the U.S., and again this past February in Germany.

Just last month, I went to pick up copies of my medical records from a doctor I had left due to her ongoing neglect. What I saw was telling: most of the staff were gone, and the waiting room was completely empty.
 

Viala

Senior Member
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792
Conclusion, AI would do a better job on all fronts. It doesn't get tired, it's empathetic, much more receptive and up to date with all new research. Given that it would be programmed properly, and not to misdiagnose patients on purpose or prescribe meds that are not needed, to make more money.
 

southwestforests

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Given that it would be programmed properly
Define "properly".

Properly according to insurance company shareholders; properly according to pharmaceutical companies; properly according to medical device suppliers; properly according to hospital and clinic property managers; properly according to medical facility human resources managers; properly according to political regulators wishing to retain their power and employment; properly according to politicians campaigning on altering the government social services budgeting; properly according to potential patients; might or might not all be identical definitions of "properly".

➡️
For instance, if those who are writing the checks to fund creation of said medical diagnostic AI have a worldview which says this Earth is dangerously overpopulated and population reduction must begin right now or humanity is doomed, would they deliberately enable creation of an AI which will produce results that undermine their worldview?
🤔
 
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Rufous McKinney

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I find it interesting that the institutionalized lack of sleep and constantly overworked state of Medical Students: slams right into their ability to maintain empathy for the sick. What a set up.

It's possible what new students discover is: it's so f-ing complicated. Physiology, metabolic, all these pathways, look at the basic horror goings on during the intense part of the COVID pandemic etc.

Now it's all pills. Too many pills to keep track of.

Its too hard to integrate all this into a Holistic approach, for most people.

- I witnessed my doctor call my insurer, who had denied the Prescription for Modafinil. I watched a Friday afternoon, as he stood there being transferred SIX times.

The story was repeated SIX times. The final person refused to Ok the Rx. I bought 10 pills with my own money. I took it twice and crashed every time, so forget that pill.

But the point is my doctor wasted 35 minutes, on Friday at 5 pm. I heard him tell the story SIX times and he lied several times (about Rx's I had supposedly tried, but did not work, and that had nothing to do with the Modafinil.

Doctor did not get paid for this wasted half an hour. So, no wonder the system is largely broken.
 

Viala

Senior Member
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792
might or might not all be identical definitions of "properly".

Proper properly would be to make people healthy the best way possible and making it a priority. Even better, preventing them from getting sick in the first place.

This will actually be an interesting test for our species as we should aim to demonetize medical industry, with AI this could be possible. AI doing consultations, medical procedures, prescribing meds, all for free, guaranteed by human rights and with a high rate of success. And it will never be like that because everything depends on who owns it and it's just like you've written. They will rather make it faulty and then also cut out the middlemen, because why not. The richest wouldn't mind since they probably have their own separate medical system anyways. So I guess gods in white indeed can exist.
 

SWAlexander

Senior Member
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2,149
AI would do a better job on all fronts.
While AI can be a valuable tool, it primarily reproduces existing published information. As such, we should exercise caution and independently verify content is crucial, particularly when dealing with paid or potentially biased publications.
Example:

More than 10,000 research papers were retracted in 2023 — a new record
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-023-03974-8

 

Viala

Senior Member
Messages
792
While AI can be a valuable tool, it primarily reproduces existing published information. As such, we should exercise caution and independently verify content is crucial, particularly when dealing with paid or potentially biased publications.

It should be fed with the same information as medicine students first and then adjust depending on results. At some point it would verify if that knowledge is correct as well. At the very least they could make it a copy of what we already have, but then it could start to find inconsistencies.
 

SWAlexander

Senior Member
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2,149
It should
"Should" is the key word.
So far, I've encountered only one medical professional who questioned a negative reaction to a medication that should have been the appropriate solution.
This kind of unquestioning acceptance is part of why unproven remedies often generate huge profits.
And disturbingly, those who challenge unfounded claims or unexpected results are often attacked or dismissed.
Example:

Two Missing Enzymes: Cryopyrin and TPMT – A Hidden Risk for Drug Toxicity
https://swaresearch.blogspot.com/2025/05/two-missing-enzymes-cryopyrin-and-tpmt.html

 

southwestforests

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Location
Missouri
It should be fed with the same information as medicine students first and then adjust depending on results.
https://www.cdc.gov/me-cfs/hcp/toolkit/resources-for-medical-students.html
Dated May 2024
Most medical schools in the United States do not have ME/CFS as part of their physician training.
Indeed, as I've previously told several times on here, a year or so ago when I asked the fresh young doctor who replaced my old grey doctor who retired about ME/CFS his response was that he had not heard of it.

Okay, so, the AI will be adjusted depending on the results ...
Who examines that?
Who decides that?
🤔

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10819994/
Dated December 2023
Today, scientific papers portraying ME/CFS as psychosomatic continue to be published [59]. Many physicians still believe that ME/CFS is a psychosomatic disease [60], and 90% of patients with ME/CFS are at least once told by health professionals that their symptoms are psychosomatic before receiving an ME/CFS diagnosis [61]
↗️
How many of those papers were given to the hypothetical medical diagnosis AI?
How many of those physicians took part in creating the AI?
🤔

Okay, those adjustments depending on results ...

What people or what agencies, with what worldviews and what agendas, will decide which AI results/database/programming need to be adjusted?
What people or what agencies will select those people who will perform the adjusting?
🤔
Or will the adjusting be done in pert or whole by other AI created by other people with what worldview and what agenda?

Yes, I am aware that I am likely being something of a contrarian and a pest here.

Part of that is influenced by a Google search last month or so where Google's AI took the term I was searching for, which I want to say was a medical term, found a word spelled 2 letters differently & offered only results about that different word.

(hmm, thought I'd taken a screenshot and posted it in a thread about AI on the Secret Projects forum, seems not)(but then I am doing all this thinking and writing at 01:54 in the morning while having painsomnia)

Part is also influenced by various doctors who were presumably educated on the same medical textbooks and papers that AI creators would use, giving somewhere between several and multiple misdiagnoses and mistreatments during the 62 year course of my life.

At this point on the calendar I am reluctant to trust doctors & doubly reluctant to trust AI which has used the same medical data the human doctors are educated and informed with.
 

SWAlexander

Senior Member
Messages
2,149
various doctors who were presumably educated
"Presumably educated" is the key word.
In an effort to better understand the cause of my periodically recurring cough, and in light of the limited support I had received from my primary care physician, I took the initiative to investigate further on my own. Anticipating that another brief consultation would once again fail to yield any conclusive findings, I arrived prepared with Petri dish results from preliminary testing I had conducted independently.

To my disappointment, my physician could neither identify the presented evidence nor acknowledge or express any interest in having the results verified by a certified laboratory.
https://swaresearch.blogspot.com/2025/06/aspergillus-trichoderma-and-penicillium.html
 

southwestforests

Senior Member
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1,373
Location
Missouri
To my disappointment, my physician could neither identify the presented evidence nor acknowledge or express any interest in having the results verified by a certified laboratory.
https://swaresearch.blogspot.com/2025/06/aspergillus-trichoderma-and-penicillium.html
What the mention of penicilluim mold brings to mind right away is that around the time I was 5 a reaction to penicillin medicine darn near killed me & that in my teenage years I got very sick while driving and eating some snack cheese which turned out to have penicillium listed in its ingredients.
Yes I read labels, also have to avoid "and or cottonseed oil" yet there is that thing where we humans are by definition not perfect.
 

kushami

Senior Member
Messages
757
Out of all the many doctors I've seen, maybe getting up to a hundred if I'm counting the ones that pop up constantly when you're in hospital, I think there have been three good ones.

One is an endocrinologist who is very conscientious, very intelligent, and very kind as well. Every time I get sick I hope it is endocrine so she can look after me. If you need a good endocrinologist in Melbourne, Australia, send me a message!

One was my GP, who sadly (for me) retired. She wasn't a brilliant diagnostician but she was kind and always did her best for me. I actually enjoyed seeing her, apart from being sick. She was like that nice teacher you had in high school and she reminded me a bit of my mum, same age and upbringing I expect.

One was a doctor I had when I was in hospital in London with a badly inflamed colon. She was very nice and kind, and arranged for me to stay at the hospital longer so I wouldn't have to pay exorbitant London accommodation prices before flying home after surgery, and I think may have gotten in trouble for it from my horrible, mean surgeon.
 
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