Daily episodes of blurry vision and pain around eyes

[Murph]

I had a similar thing where my eyes were periodically blurry. I can give what I think is good news - it's possibel for it to be muscular rather than structural or neurological. When I went to the optometrists they said my eyes were in great heath but the little muscles that are supposed to work to focus them were tired. for me it was in the morning when I first got up.

So I agree with Mary that it could be muscle weakness. Rest and various salts are probably what's needed.

Phosphorous deficiency (hypophosphatemia) can cause double vision. It's happened to me and the double vision went away when I took phosphorous. I started needing extra phosphorous when I started taking B1 due to refeeding syndrome (see https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/23228-refeeding-syndrome )

Low phosphorous causes muscle weakness among many other things, and the first muscles to go weak are the small ones such as in the eyes and the throat. It can cause difficulty swallowing. I take a phosphorous supplement several times a week but sometimes I overlook it and one of my first symptoms is my pills start getting stuck in my throat.

And this 1998 study is pretty interesting I think: Phosphate diabetes in patients with chronic fatigue syndrome - roughly 10% of 87 ME/CFS patients were found to have phosphate diabetes:

When it comes to dietary sources of phosphate, cola is a widely available and highly standardised option!
https://www.jrnjournal.org/article/S1051-2276(13)00181-7/fulltext

 

[Mary]

When it comes to dietary sources of phosphate, cola is a widely available and highly standardised option!
https://www.jrnjournal.org/article/S1051-2276(13)00181-7/fulltext

Right, but cola and all its sugar is really not a good option! Actually I think because of sodas, hyperphosphatemia is more common than hypophosphatemia, but I never drink sodas. I like them but won't go near them. I think they're a huge factor in our burgeoning diabetes numbers. It's crazy - there are so many health conditions people bring upon themselves, if they only knew . . . it's hard to imagine that anyone in this day and age isn't aware of the dangers of lots of sugar and empty carbs but there seem to be a lot of them. Then I read stories about someone who stopped sugar and lo and behold, huge health improvement! If only it were that easy for us . . .

 

[hapl808]

When it comes to dietary sources of phosphate, cola is a widely available and highly standardised option!

Are there other ones? I did notice that Mexican Coke improves my symptoms, but I usually only have an ounce or two at a time because of the sugar - and now I've also cut out most caffeine, so that doubly off the table. Never sure if it helps from the sugar, caffeine, or phosphate, or whatever.

 

[Murph]

Are there other ones? I did notice that Mexican Coke improves my symptoms, but I usually only have an ounce or two at a time because of the sugar - and now I've also cut out most caffeine, so that doubly off the table. Never sure if it helps from the sugar, caffeine, or phosphate, or whatever.

lots of foods are high in phosphate; googling will turn up a list.

As for coke, I've noticed coke zero improves my symptoms sometimes. If I'm out and about and feel fatigue coming on, stopping and having 600mL of coke zero can really turn things around. It could be the liquid, the phosphate, the aspartame (metabolised to phenylalanine), or the caffeine.
I've wondered about buying sugar coke, a diet cola with a different sweetener, and caffeine free coke zero and running a blinded experiment on myself to see if I can figure out what the magic ingredient might be!

 

[pattismith]

@Mary , do you had blood tests for phosphatemia, and what was the result?

My husband experienced mild hypophosphatemia crisis with severe neurological symptoms.
I think it's strange as mild hypophosphatemia is not supposed to be associated with any symptom.

 

[Mary]

@Mary , do you had blood tests for phosphatemia, and what was the result?

My husband experienced mild hypophosphatemia crisis with severe neurological symptoms.
I think it's strange as mild hypophosphatemia is not supposed to be associated with any symptom.

View attachment 53924

@pattismith - I first discovered the issue of hypophosphatemia when I first took B1 several years ago. I didn't have blood tests done then - I generally don't have blood tests done every time something goes wrong with me (which happens quite a bit) because usually nothing shows up on blood work for me. I rarely go see a doctor with my weird ME/CFS symptoms.

I had read about hypophosphatemia being the hallmark of refeeding syndrome and when the severe fatigue hit within a day or two of starting the B1, I theorized the problem was refeeding syndrome and hypophosphatemia because potassium didn't help as it did when I started methylfolate. And when I drank several glasses of kefir (dairy being high in phosphorous), the symptoms of refeeding syndrome (severe fatigue) went away. So I didn't get blood work done then. But I did read about hypophosphatemia and learned that double vision and trouble swallowing were early symptoms of hypophosphatemia, and I'd had them both so now I look out for them. And I supplement with phosphorous regularly and rarely get these symptoms any more.

Last year I was hospitalized for 2 weeks, could not take any of my supplements, and they took blood every day and at one point gave me supplemental potassium and phosphorous so I'm assuming my numbers were low then.

I wouldn't pay attention to the chart you posted. I have found that good research re nutrition and health is very hard to find. Whoever made that chart I'm sure wasn't aware of double or blurred vision, and trouble swallowing associated with hypophosphatemia. I think they just don't pay attention to patients' symptoms. We're written off, or don't even go to the doctor with these symptoms or if we do go we're told it's nothing. I doubt if any serious research has been done on early symptoms of hypophosphatemia. They only seem to pay attention if we're having a severe reaction.

So I don't agree that mild hypophosphatemia is asyptomatic. There are symptoms - degrees of fatigue, blurred vision etc. And the severe neurological symptoms your husband experienced.

Also, you may know that one can have low intracellular potassium despite normal serum levels. In other words, a person can have symptoms of hypokalemia despite normal blood work (see this post). It makes me wonder if the same thing may be true of phosphorous though I doubt there is any research on this. So I think it's possible your husband's intracellular phosphorous might have been lower than his blood work indicated though of course this is just conjecture.

 

[pattismith]

@pattismith - I first discovered the issue of hypophosphatemia when I first took B1 several years ago. I didn't have blood tests done then - I generally don't have blood tests done every time something goes wrong with me (which happens quite a bit) because usually nothing shows up on blood work for me. I rarely go see a doctor with my weird ME/CFS symptoms.

I had read about hypophosphatemia being the hallmark of refeeding syndrome and when the severe fatigue hit within a day or two of starting the B1,

Thank you for your reply!

I read that refeeding syndrome happens when you starved and then started to eat, so that you have
-deplete stored
-sudden rise in insulin that shift phosphorus form the extracellular space to the intracellular space

I don't know think this is exactely what happens to my husband, but I agree with the fact that the serum phosphorus' normal levels might not be right for everyone.

In december, my husband had a gastrointestinal viral infection and had a sudden muscle weakness, he could wake up or even sit in his bed and altered mental status for 12 or 24h00. No fever. He got a blood work done:

Last week, my husband got Theophylline 100 mg twice a day and got the same sudden muscle weakness, unable to wake up, unable to sit in his bed, and altered mental status for 12h00.
He got a blood work done when he was paralysed, and phosphorus was even lower, but nothing that would worry any doctor!

Theophylline is known to deplete blood phosphorus but the dose my husband took (200 mg ) was much lower than the usual medical dosing (700 mg per day).

I read about theophylline effect but it's not clear to me if there is a phosphorus shift from the extra to the intracell space, or an increased excretion or both....Articles are conflicting.

I also read and interesting rat study that might interest you about Thiamin:

"The changes observed in magnesium-deficient groups (groups 1, 3 and 5) are characterized as follows: .................................. serum and bone phosphorus decreased.

These changes in thiamin-sufficient, magnesium-deficient rats (groups 3 and 5) are greater than in rats deficient in both thiamin and magnesium (group 1)."

This is in line with what you observed about the Thiamin/phosphorus link:
in this study, thiamin is especially detrimental to phosphorus level when magnesium is deplete.

So complementing with both phosphorus and magnesium might always be better than phosphorus only or magnesium only.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0022316623263415

 

[Mary]

I read that refeeding syndrome happens when you starved and then started to eat, so that you have
-deplete stored
-sudden rise in insulin that shift phosphorus form the extracellular space to the intracellular space

Hi @pattismith - I think refeeding syndrome most commonly happens in people who are starved or have severe malnutrition - however, it seems to be very common in persons with ME/CFS which I think is a clue of sorts as to what is going on in our bodies. I don't know how to interpret this clue - why or how it occurs - but it seems to me most of us are malnourished no matter how well we eat. I have to take lots of extra B vitamins to function as well as I am able, and I am never able to stop taking them. The malnourishment never gets remedied. I also have to take extra potassium and phosphorous daily, and branched chain amino acids, among other things.

There are tons of posts on PR about people needing extra potassium when they start methylation, and this generally doesn't happen in normal healthy people. It did happen to me though when I started methylfolate in 2010, and I still have to take extra potassium daily. However my healthy sister who developed neurological symptoms due to low B12 after being vegetarian for several years, had no hypokalemic symptoms at all after starting high dose B12. Her neurological symptoms disappeared after about a week of B12 supplementation and she didn't have to keep taking the high dose B12 forever, like I do.

I'm not sure about the sudden rise in insulin and refeeding syndrome - I think this article gives a good overview of refeeding syndrome: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK564513/

Refeeding syndrome is defined as medical complications that result from fluid and electrolyte shifts as a result of aggressive nutritional rehabilitation. Refeeding syndrome commonly occurs in populations at high risk for malnutrition ranging from patients with eating disorders to renal failure patients on hemodialysis.[1] Metabolic disturbances manifest in cardiopulmonary, hematologic, and neurological dysfunction in these types of patients. Hypophosphatemia is considered a hallmark of refeeding syndrome; however, other electrolyte irregularities may also include but are not limited to decreased amounts of magnesium, potassium, and thiamine.[2]

I see your husband's phosphorous numbers were at or near the bottom of the normal range. Again, I don't think the nutritional ranges are that well informed. My potassium levels are generally in the bottom part of the "normal" range and I have to take a fair amount of supplemental potassium to even keep them there, and symptoms develop very quickly for me if I don't. And yet it's not unusual to be told that one doesn't have symptoms if you're at all in the "normal" range - it's just not true.

Of course I'm just guessing what's going on with your husband but it looks to me like he may have to be careful to stay on top of his phosphorous levels and I think it might be a good idea to have them be higher than the bottom of the range. When my phosphorous is low, I also will feel flat and empty, as well as the other symptoms. And my mood improves when my levels go up. And my levels have never tested outside of the "normal" range though I've often had symptoms of hyphosphatemia

I've taken this product for a few years now: https://hargravesotc.com/products/s...e-100-packets-by-rugby?variant=39364807000147

and have had good results with it, but it's a nuisance to take, I've often had to take 3 packets and have to dissolve them etc. I recently found this product which seems to work as well if not better, and it's much easier to take, and is also cheaper: https://shop.bioticsresearch.com/products/super-phosphozyme I take 2 tablets a day and it keeps my symptoms at bay.

 

[Mary]

in this study, thiamin is especially detrimental to phosphorus level when magnesium is deplete.

So complementing with both phosphorus and magnesium might always be better than phosphorus only or magnesium only.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0022316623263415

This is very interesting - thanks! I do take lots of magnesium glycinate and have for many years but again magnesium is something ME/CFS patients tend to be deficient in and is one of the many things I have to take every day.

I think if the riddle of ME/CFS is ever solved, we will no longer have to take boatloads of supplements just to function a little bit!

 

[pattismith]

lots of foods are high in phosphate; googling will turn up a list.

As for coke, I've noticed coke zero improves my symptoms sometimes. If I'm out and about and feel fatigue coming on, stopping and having 600mL of coke zero can really turn things around. It could be the liquid, the phosphate, the aspartame (metabolised to phenylalanine), or the caffeine.
I've wondered about buying sugar coke, a diet cola with a different sweetener, and caffeine free coke zero and running a blinded experiment on myself to see if I can figure out what the magic ingredient might be!

Caffeine lowers blood phosphate.

1-If caffeine alone makes you better, then it means it's not phosphate that improves you in the coke;

In this case, it may be the caffeine cerebral vascular constriction that improves you.

2-If caffeine alone doesn't improve you, then try phosphate alone.

If neither Caffeine nor Phosphate makes you better, then you can presume the you need both, in order to prevent the Phosphorus lowering effect induced by Caffeine and to fully benefit from the good effet Caffeine can bring to you.

My husband has this specific issue, because his phosphate blood level is borderline despite eating dairy products.

 

[Wayne]

I watched a video yesterday by Eric Berg on hyaluronic acid. Our bodies apparently really lose a lot over the years, as much as 80%. It appears to be especially good for the eyes.

So I plan on getting some in bulk so that I can apply it regularly to my eyelids along with my DMSO and Magnesium Oil and Vitamin C & MSM. I wonder how many ingredients I'll be applying to my eyes by the end of the year? Below is a "conversation" I had with Perplexity (AI website).

How important is hyaluronic acid to eye health?

Answer

Hyaluronic acid plays a crucial role in maintaining optimal eye health and function. Here are the key points regarding its importance:

• It makes up around 95% of the vitreous fluid inside the eye, supporting the health of ocular structures like the cornea and retina.
• Its ability to bind and retain moisture helps keep the eyes lubricated, replenish lost fluids, absorb shocks, and transport nutrients.
• As we age, the body's production of hyaluronic acid decreases, leading to dryness, sensitivity, and potential vision issues. After age 50, the eyes can lose up to 50% of their ability to produce hyaluronic acid.
• Hyaluronic acid eye drops can provide longer-lasting moisture and protection due to the viscous nature of the substance. They can hydrate and nourish dry eye conditions caused by aging or external factors like UV radiation.
• It helps maintain the structure and shape of the eye by forming the central vitreous part.
• Studies have shown that hyaluronic acid can help alleviate dry eye symptoms and improve tear film stability.

In summary, hyaluronic acid is essential for maintaining proper lubrication, moisture levels, structural integrity, and overall health of the eyes, especially as we age and its natural production declines.

What's the most economical way to purchase straight hyaluronic acid. Liquid? Dry?

Answer

The most economical way to purchase hyaluronic acid is to buy it in powder (dry) form rather than pre-dissolved liquid form. Here are the key points:

• Hyaluronic acid powder is significantly cheaper than pre-made solutions or serums. Powder can cost around $5-7 per gram, while pre-made solutions are much more expensive.
• To use the powder, you make a stock solution by dissolving a small amount (e.g. 1 gram) in distilled water to make a 1% hyaluronic acid solution. This stock solution can then be used as an ingredient in your DIY skincare formulations.
• Making your own 1% stock solution from powder allows you to precisely control the concentration and cost per batch. Pre-made solutions have a fixed concentration that may be too high or low for your needs.

How is commercial dry hyaluronic acid made? From plants? From animals? From the laboratory?

Answer

Commercial dry hyaluronic acid is primarily produced through microbial fermentation rather than extraction from animal sources or plants. The key points regarding its production are:

• Historically, hyaluronic acid was extracted from animal tissues like rooster combs, but this raised ethical concerns and safety issues.
• Currently, the predominant commercial method is microbial fermentation using bacteria like Streptococcus or non-pathogenic strains of E.coli and Bacillus.
• In this process, the bacteria are cultured in large fermentation tanks and fed plant-derived sugars like glucose. The bacteria then biosynthesize and secrete hyaluronic acid into the fermentation broth.
• The hyaluronic acid is then extracted, purified through filtration/centrifugation, and finally dried into a powder form for commercial sale.
• This microbial fermentation approach using plant sugars as the feedstock allows large-scale production of pure, animal-free hyaluronic acid in a controlled manner.
• While some companies claim to extract "botanical hyaluronic acid" from plants, true hyaluronic acid cannot be directly obtained from plant sources. Plants only contain similar polysaccharides, not the exact hyaluronic acid molecule.

So in summary, the vast majority of commercial dry hyaluronic acid powder is produced via microbial fermentation of bacteria fed on plant-derived sugars, rather than direct extraction from animal tissues or plants. This biofermentation method is considered safer, more ethical and allows better quality control.

...............................................

--- I just checked Amazon, and got a large size in bulk (8 oz) for $35. That will be enough to last a long time. Can be applied topically or taken orally, although the absorption rate is only about 2.5% when taken orally according to Berg. ---

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