CROI (Retrovirology and Opportunistic Infections, Boston) on XMRV and CFS

[Ecoclimber]

http://www.retroconference.org/2011/data/files/ProgramAtAGlance_11.pdf

It looks like XMRV is likely to be a contaminant in the human studies to date. New data is coming out at the CROI conference in Boston that:

-Detection of XMRV integration into prostate cancer cells is not correct and is likely due to contamination.

-XMRV in the 22Rv1 prostate cancer cells came from mice and was not in the original patient.

-Mice harbor viruses nearly identical to XMRV


- Silverman knows about the contamination regarding his research.


- Mikovits et al. is not presenting


- From very authoritative sources

 

[Esther12]

So Silverman is backing away from XMRV as a human pathogen? That would be big.

 

[asleep]

From super-duper authoritative sources:

Thanks to Andrea, we now know that Dr. Judy Mikovits and Drs. Sandy and Frank Ruscetti were not invited and their abstracts were not accepted on how XMRV affects the immune system. In addition, John Coffin was part of this abstract committee.

 

[Ecoclimber]

- From very authoritative sources[/QUOTE]

So Silverman is backing away from XMRV as a human pathogen? That would be big.

Not feeling too happy at the moment to put it mildly.

Integrated virus was found in Klein's flash frozen prostate tissue by the same lab studying XMRV integration sites in a human cell line directly infected with XMRV. The cell line would contain thousands to millions of integration sites at high concentration, so contamination of the patient samples with this material is not unlikely.

 

[Esther12]

I think I was already feeling down enough on XMRV to not be too traumatised if this is it... but if this is the end I know it's going to hit a lot of people really hard. Thanks for letting us know what you've heard.

 

[eric_s]

http://www.retroconference.org/2011/data/files/ProgramAtAGlance_11.pdf

It looks like XMRV is likely to be a contaminant in the human studies to date. New data is coming out at the CROI conference in Boston that:

-Detection of XMRV integration into prostate cancer cells is not correct and is likely due to contamination.

-XMRV in the 22Rv1 prostate cancer cells came from mice and was not in the original patient.

-Mice harbor viruses nearly identical to XMRV


- Silverman knows about the contamination regarding his research.


- Mikovits et al. is not presenting


- From very authoritative sources

The program has been available for a couple of days. I agree it did not really look great, but i did not reach the same conclusion as you have. Is what you have said only based on the program? Then i would say not so fast...

 

[asleep]

It looks like XMRV is likely to be a contaminant in the human studies to date.

Wow, this is a bold statement to make with absolutely no evidence to support it.

-Detection of XMRV integration into prostate cancer cells is not correct and is likely due to contamination.

You are referring to the new, deeply flawed Towers study that has already been torn apart here and here.

It's a bit telling that you refer to this paper with such uncritical acceptance.

-XMRV in the 22Rv1 prostate cancer cells came from mice and was not in the original patient.

Evidence? Are you referring to one of the December Retrovirology papers that have been roundly debunked?

-Mice harbor viruses nearly identical to XMRV

That's why "Murine" is part of XMRV.

- Silverman knows about the contamination regarding his research.

I'll believe it when I hear it from Silverman himself, thanks.

- Mikovits et al. is not presenting

Because, rumor has it, they were both not invited and denied an opportunity to present.

- From very authoritative sources

Personally, I don't consider your wildest fantasies to be an authoritative source...

Integrated virus was found in Klein's flash frozen prostate tissue by the same lab studying XMRV integration sites in a human cell line directly infected with XMRV. The cell line would contain thousands to millions of integration sites at high concentration, so contamination of the patient samples with this material is not unlikely.

Again, you are referring to the new Towers study that is really very bad.

 

[Esther12]

Yeah - I want an official statement before I get too carried away too. There have been conflicting rumours before, and it's easy for chinese whispers to start on the internet.

 

[Ecoclimber]

What do we have here, hmmm A troll from the dark side of the internet universe the UK ME/CFS Forums. Yes go tell V99, Gerwyn that this is how it's going to go down at the CROI conference. Yes, Silverman knows about it and is not a happy camper as he has been talking to my source. But don't believe me, call him up yourself and talk to him. My source did, how about yours? No, didn't want it to go this way as we were still going to relaunch but now, there is an indefinite hold. Research dollars are no longer there.

 

[Hope123]

Before people get on Ecoclimber's case too much, it should be noted that Eco was helping Dr. Dusty Miller (at the well-respected Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center) convey info about his XMRV study to the ME/CFS community so this isn't a case of someone dismissing XMRV offhand. Hopefully, this doesn't mean Dr. Miller is stopping or discouraged from his work. Let's also give benefit of the doubt when some folks have not been through all the XMRV papers; we're all sick here and despite all the talk, there's aren't many folks here who have intimate/ firsthand knowledge of how these tests are run.

OTOH, this is my personal take, but I would be cautious about taking studies on other illnesses (autism, GWI, prostate cancer, etc.) and applying their conclusions to ME/CFS so quickly. If contamination is present, it being present in one illness/area doesn't necessairily mean that applies for other illnesses although it will bring up more skepticism/ doubt.

 

[Esther12]

@ Ecoclimber - are you expecting an imminent public statement from Silverman in which he says that XMRV is not a human pathogen?

 

[eric_s]

What do we have here, hmmm A troll from the dark side of the internet universe the UK ME/CFS Forums. Yes go tell V99, Gerwyn that this is how it's going to go down at the CROI conference. Yes, Silverman knows about it and is not a happy camper as he has been talking to my source. But don't believe me, call him up yourself and talk to him. My source did, how about yours? No, didn't want it to go this way as we were still going to relaunch but now, there is an indefinite hold. Research dollars are no longer there.

But this would have to be a pretty recent development, because not too long ago Dr. Klein was defending his prostate cancer work. So what happened?

 

[Ecoclimber]

Yes Eric, it is discouraging. My source is working with Silverman. They are running through the data once again to verify. The abstracts will be presented at the CROI. My source is checking with Coffin to determine if Mikovits and Rescutti papers were indeed excluded from the conference via another site. My source hopes that they can find a non contaminated XMRV source but remains doubtful as he works with Silverman on this issue. That is all the information, I can provide at this time.

 

[Ecoclimber]

@ Ecoclimber - are you expecting an imminent public statement from Silverman in which he says that XMRV is not a human pathogen?

Ester
No, my source is working with Silverman. They are running through the tests again to verify...to date, no XMRV. When he does make a statement it will be in regard to prostate cancer ONLY not on any other illnesses that could be associated with XMRV. I need to point this out.

 

[alex3619]

Hi, while I am still pro-XMRV as a potential pathogen, even if XMRV does not cause ME/CFS there has been so much good research lately that is often overlooked, its not all about XMRV. Bye, Alex

ps. Something that often gets overlooked, is that this contamination claim is that the samples were contaminated from other human samples with XMRV. It is implicit that XMRV is really in people. We have even cloned it and used it to infect animals. This is even true if the original source was mouse contamination through a xenograft.

 

[Dan_USAAZ]

Ecoclimber,
Based on your interpretation of the conference data, are they saying

XMRV does not have a relationship to ME/CFS, prostate cancer, etc.,
or
XMRV does not exist in humans at all
or
Something else?

I think I have a basic understanding of what they are saying about contamination, but why would only the ME/CFS samples get contaminated and not the controls? Were samples handled differently?
Does the contamination theory explain antibody serology positives?

Thanks for your assessment.
Dan

 

[Ecoclimber]

The spin at the CROI conference will state in the abstracts that the 22Rv1 cell line is a contaminate. This is not because of Hue's algorithm but by other analysis. XMRV is a contaminate. Yes and Yes.

 

[Sean]

How are they accounting for the consistent and large differential between controls and patients in the +ve studies?

 

[eric_s]

I can now again access the program, before it was not possible.

http://retroconference.org/2011/Sessions/043.htm

It is still the same. Ruscetti and IrsiCaixa will be presenting. I don't see any Silverman presentation. And also Alter and Lo presented 6 days ago, saying there is no contamination. So let's wait and see what will happen. I find it rather hard to believe those two would not have known things have changed so drastically. And one more thing that comes to my mind, in the monkey studies XMRV seemed to prefer prostate tissue among others, right?

I'm having a cold and fever at the moment, so perfect timing...

Edit: This Silverman paper was published 2 weeks ago:

http://jvi.asm.org/cgi/content/abstract/JVI.02411-10v1

Of note, in spite of the intravenous inoculation, extensive XMRV replication was noted in prostate during acute but not chronic infection, even though infected cells were still detectable by FISH in prostate at 5 and 9 months post infection.

Everything is possible, but i don't believe anything before i hear if from Silverman, the WPI, Alter, Lo, Ruscetti etc. directly. No offence meant, Ecoclimber, but this is too important, so i can't accept it at this moment, based on that little indirect information. The negative papers that are scheduled don't seem to be very new, so i find it hard to believe everything has been turned upside down.

 

[asleep]

The spin at the CROI conference will state in the abstracts that the 22Rv1 cell line is a contaminate. This is not because of Hue's algorithm but by other analysis. XMRV is a contaminate. Yes and Yes.

You claim that this will be shown by someone other than Hue. Care to share which presentation will make this case?

Here is the lineup of presentations:

Themed Discussion: XMRV: New Findings and Controversies
3/2/2011 1:00 PM

Development of a GFP-indicator Cell Line for the Detection of XMRV
KyeongEun Lee
NCI-Frederick, MD, US

XMRV Induces a Nonproductive Infection in Human Lymphoid Tissue
Marta Curriu
Fndn irsiCaixa, Badalona, Spain

Presence of XMRV Sequences in B Cells Are Restricted by APOBEC
Jorge Carrillo
Fndn irsiCaixa, Barcelona, Spain

Single Copy and Single Genome Sequencing Assays to Detect XMRV in Human Blood Products
Mary Kearney
HIV Drug Resistance Prgm, NCI-Frederick, MD, US

Discordant XMRV Test Results and Non-reproducible Mouse Endogenous Retroviral Detection in an XMRV Prevalence Study
Timothy Henrich
Brigham and Women`s Hosp, Boston, MA, US and Harvard Med Sch, Boston, MA, US

Serologic and PCR Testing of Persons with CFS in the US Shows No Association with XMRV
William Switzer
CDC, Atlanta, GA, US

Extensive Genetic Recombination in the XMRV Genome
William Switzer
CDC, Atlanta, GA, US

Disease-associated XMRV Sequences Explained by Laboratory Contamination
Stphane Hu
Univ Coll London, UK

Identification of a Novel Endogenous Murine Leukemia Virus as an XMRV Ancestor
Oya Cingoz
Tufts Univ Sch of Med, Boston, MA, US