Crashing from social time

[Emmarose47]

I've just starting listening to some Gabor Mate podcasts re trauma and the body .
I've always found the effect of social interaction hard to accept in m.e CFs.

I'm wondering for myself if having symptoms after social interaction is to do with my relating style and trauma background rather than just straight physical exertion ?

Gabor talks about it being a great teacher for us .

I find a lot of people over talk and I often am left feeling bombarded, not held space for and energetically sucked .
I'm an empath as many of us are .

I've Def made progress in this area but have some way to go ...

To be in social company with people I love and protect myself .
Learn how to relate differently
Be more protected .

Any experience, ideas ...v welcome

 

[hapl808]

Sounds like it could be helpful, but I'm not sure about relating to ME/CFS. I've also found it hard to accept, but I rarely find people over talk (maybe I'm the over-talker) and used to be pretty extroverted by nature. I also get the exact same symptoms from social interaction or enjoyable computer work, so I think it's more about concentration or focus for me, but obviously we're all different.

 

[Husband of]

I think social interaction can drain energy in different ways. For some it is exciting and they overexert without realising, for others it is anxiety causing which is also draining. In either circumstance your mind is being engaged more than it normally would, and you've possibly ventured outside the house

 

[kangaSue]

with brain hypoperfusion being one of the known issues in ME/CFS, it's possible that PEM from cognitive exertion is a form of 'worried thinking' (mental stress), the latter which at least can cause peripheral vessels to constrict (mental stress ischemia affecting cardiac circulation) so may be something else that also worsens brain hypoperfusion. No doubt other hormonal responses also get involved to have a hand in that too though.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5373992/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6126243/

 

[hapl808]

For some it is exciting and they overexert without realising, for others it is anxiety causing which is also draining.

Yeah, for me it's mostly some form of overexertion I suppose. I get the same thing from any mental work that puts me into a flow state - certain types of writing, computer work, etc. If it's not a flow state type of activity, I find it much less draining.

In either circumstance your mind is being engaged more than it normally would, and you've possibly ventured outside the house

I'm mostly housebound so any social activity is here, but it still has the same effect. Leaving the house on its own will also trigger a crash, though, probably from a combination of mental and physical stimulation.

with brain hypoperfusion being one of the known issues in ME/CFS, it's possible that PEM from cognitive exertion is a form of 'worried thinking' (mental stress),

I think this depends on the person. For me, thinking awful thoughts about what the rest of my life may be like (my form of worried thinking) is annoying and somewhat tiring and stressful and not great for my mood, but never really causes a crash. An annoying customer service call rarely crashes me. An enjoyable social interaction is pretty much guaranteed to crash me, as is significant physical exertion.

It's interesting how varied we are, and my personal theory is that there may be many different mechanisms that lead to the same general outward symptoms. I think this is also why we respond to treatment so differently, and I wonder if we stratified based on qualitative symptom clusters and then examined if there were any correlations with effective treatments.

 

[Viala]

Some interactions can be draining even without CFS. If one has to struggle to be heard when there's overtalking or when many people talk at the same time, it is draining. Most is healthy enough to not to crash afterwards, but if they had to spend whole days in such environment, they would eventually feel physically and emotionally drained. We notice it more because we have less energy.

Even a pleasant social interaction is still a lot to compute for a CFS brain, to focus continuously on what is being said and then interacting, it takes a lot of energy. We get emotional or excited, there's adrenaline and dopamine flowing, and it's the energy borrowed from tomorrow. Emotions are especially calorie hungry. Paced and calm interaction which brings mostly positive feelings seems to be the best.

 

[linusbert]

for me its already enough to have multiple people - strangers - just in the room not doing and saying anything.
it immediately makes me tired and even getting brain fog which is rare for me.

i rarely leave my room, when i got moved through the floor with a wheelchair... i got the same symptoms... seamingly just by impressions of the "new" rooms and people just beeing there.

its like the brain activates zones for social interactions and allocates energy for it i dont have.

 

[lenora]

I'll tell you one thing that will drain you and that's having company. We like seeing people and staying in contact, but this September/October has been really draining. Our last due left yesterday and had to return home early b/c of a death. One night was more than long enough....not because of the effort involved, but the social interaction is just so tiring now.

I find I'll talk when I shouldn't. Then I feel terrible for the next few days/wks., just flat drained. Telephone calls have to stop earlier b/c my throat and voice both are threatened.

Went to my internist today (who doesn't know what to do with me). The only Dr. who did died, and it's a major mess to find a replacement. Anyway, she agreed to fill the important prescriptions from my neurologist and I'm cancelling a couple of my other doctors. Most aren't of great use anyway. Really, I strongly feel that our biggest problem is having a relationship with a doctor....then they truly go above and beyond but I know that takes
time....a lot of time and effort.

So then I went across the street and had a flu short in one arm and my last COVID in the other. I just wanted them over...and hope I'll be OK. Any major complaints from others?

Then to a lab for bloodwork. That was a lot of fun (?) since all is now computerized and I was pleased to even see young people looking like they didn't know what to do. All this running around for one doctor....definitely dropping as many as possible. I'll keep my cardiologist and that's it. I'm learning to live with what's wrong....cures are few and far between.

An addition: Everyone commented that they can't find employees...what's going on and where are they? Lenora

 

[Wishful]

I too think that it's the cognitive effort of socializing that triggers the PEM. For me, chatting with friends produced similar results as driving (complex processing). The PEM was more severe when driving in the dark, with blowing snow on icy roads. I'm not sure whether that's due to stress hormones or to greater processing demands (can only see a short distance, requiring quick decisions). Hmmm, socializing requires quick decisions too, to avoid foot-in-mouth disease.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

Hmmm, socializing requires quick decisions too, to avoid foot-in-mouth disease.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

Outside sitting on the step, briefly chatting with my nice neighbor. (if not for taking out the trash, I'd see nobody)

The "other" new neighbor, made an appearance. and somehow, he offered up a couple of remarks, none of which I understood. Thats a new ME thing, being generally left going: HUH WHAT? And I just grunted. I did not have the energy for a "What Did You Just say" moment.

He said something witty or funny, but I missed it. Now, I think I'll be having to avoid random exhanges for fear of more of this.

I used to be very witty. Almost famously. Nobody ever fell asleep in a meeting I ran. But mostly thats over. Whatever is witty and repartee, I am no longer capable of riffing like that. Which is fine. Its just not who I am....I am really not at all like the original person I started out as....

so who are we, anyway?

 

[linusbert]

Hmmm, socializing requires quick decisions too, to avoid foot-in-mouth disease.

that is a good one!

I used to be very witty. Almost famously. Nobody ever fell asleep in a meeting I ran. But mostly thats over.

you still are! you just dont have the energy to exercise it right now.

"so who are we, anyway?"
the worst version of ourselves. but still the same as ever.
like a beautiful flower going into winter sleep waiting for spring to bloom again.


weirdly this disease also has some good elements especially for my personal development.
i was never a good empath before. but thanks to my experiences with others the last years i somehow am super empathic and i also seam to have gotten the ability to read minds.
i never was witty and savy when it came to communications and people could manipulate me with ease. but right now i see through the bullshit right immediately. i can recognize peoples intentions.
thats something i alwayes struggled before.
i also became aware of the desastrous state of the health care system and i learned how politics and institutions are just blunt opportunistic power hungry liers who dont care about people at all.
i also feel much more empathic for other peoples demise. i am much more tolerant now.

so if the spring comes, if i ever become healthy again, i will be a much better person.

 

[Emmarose47]

@lenora they all left for another planet ..
Maybe the planet where beings are v soft and gentle and speak slowly and are able to just be ... Or even that communication happens by telepathy so the nervous system doesn't hardly get involved !!!

Oh God take me there !!!!

 

[linusbert]

@lenora they all left for another planet ..
Maybe the planet where beings are v soft and gentle and speak slowly and are able to just be ... Or even that communication happens by telepathy so the nervous system doesn't hardly get involved !!!

Oh God take me there !!!!

my choice of utopia would rather be were everyone is healthy ^^

 

[Rufous McKinney]

"so who are we, anyway?"
the worst version of ourselves. but still the same as ever.
like a beautiful flower going into winter sleep waiting for spring to bloom again

I see many upsides to the changes wrought by this illness, also. Painful as it can sometime be....

There is an astrological phenomenon called the 29 year Moon Cycle (extra important in females)...and that includes this...concept of ...well, when the moon is nearly totally gone (balsamic)...and the fruit of your tree is rotting...the cycle renews and a new tree sprouts from the seed of that rotting fruit....(spring, and then the tree blooms again) and the cycle renews, So similarly, these types of moon phases affect long term trends in our lives..

you still are!

You so kind. I've had to accept that life comes in these varied chapters, and this is OK. Permission granted.

 

[lenora]

Well @Rufous McKinney....I used to be quite witty, etc., too at one time. Now I feel I'm doing a great job if I answer questions, add a little detail and keep the conversation flowing. My husband is of little help in that area.

This last duo was just plain hard on me, and now our daughter from CA arrives for the remainder of the weekend. A least she understands. Thankfully! My standards keep dropping, although I'm always polite to others....that just has to be, which doesn't mean making another opinion on the subject known. Kindness is always appreciated and I hope I convey that to the people I encounter.

Well, if your empathy increased, then that's of tremendous value and is something gained. I'm given to understand that utopia is where we are happiest. Not necessarily what we thought was important yesterday...but our entire lifetime. Will there be ill people...probably, because they may have found something special in that state instead of others in their lives. In reality....who knows? We hope. Yours, Lenora

 

[Rufous McKinney]

.I used to be quite witty, etc.

you still are!

The last time I went to a party and was reported by participants to be: "life of party......"....(well, not exactly)...my friend had folks over to her yard, and we were staying with her. So that was easy.

One person thought I was incredibly charming. This was because I just kept listening to what he was saying and smiling and nodding affirmatively. He thought I was simply fabulous (fooled him).

In my example, the life of the party is the person who is just listening....(and not being witty at all)

 

[Emmarose47]

I sometimes think of I got well ...would I be out there in community and revert to the old me ...
I don't like that idea ..
Then I think Naaaa this past 2yrs has changed me much for the better

 

[Rufous McKinney]

would I be out there in community and revert to the old me ...
I don't like that idea ..

that would not be good for me, either...in my personal case. Reverting.

Any number of messages have indicated I should let all that go: figure the Mission was Accomplished.

that leaves time for other Missions to be Deployed.

 

[Hufsamor]

I sometimes think if I got well.. I’ll have to learn how to socialise again..
My ability to talk to people, to react appropriate to what they say, to follow peoples emotions and the turns and the twists of an conversation…it seems to be gone completely.
I have never been much of a social genius, but now I’m completely hopeless.
Just hope some of my social skills returns with the energy.
In the meantime, I try to look at the tiny socialising I’m able to do as social exercise.
I’m like a awkward teenager again.