Could XMRV Be Transmitted by Vaccine?

[Cloud]

One can not test for something that is not known.

One can do everything in ones power but that does not mean everything can be prevented.

Vaccine contamination always was a concern for those involved in that field.

Regarding the essential vaccines the health benifits still outweight the disadvantages.

Is it really a "benefit" to sacrifice a few to save the herd? I guess maybe it is from a purely physical survival perspective....but even then I would suspect most of the "disadvantaged" crowd would disagree. Is it ethical to expect people to take such a gamble without having been fully informed of the known risks? I think not. If anyone wishes to risk themselves for good of the many fully understanding the risks, I will call them a hero. But when some take the fall for the many without having been fully informed of and consenting to the risks....well, that's a tragedy and it's unethical, especially since most will be kids.

Of course vaccines are highly associated with neuro-immune and xmrv related disease....discovering exactly what that connection is will take a little more time...but we will find out.

 

[guest]

The question remains how XMRV gets into the vaccine. Shouldn't vaccines be produced in absolute sterile environments?

 

[George]

O.K. I'm really stuck on this ideal right now, it could be totally wrong but the EBV/XMRV study from Spain seems to be saying that they used EBV to culture XMRV kinda like WPI uses prostate cancer cells to culture XMRV. So if XMRV likes to replicate inside of other virus' then it would stand to reason that if you had XMRV and you got hit with a vaccine of live say polio virus that the XMRV could replicate inside that virus and then spread through out the body. hmmmm. Don't know but it sounds really interesting. The 1934 outbreak in Los Angeles California was considered to be an abortive form of Polio since it happened during the waves of Polio that were happening at the time.

 

[lansbergen]

The question remains how XMRV gets into the vaccine. Shouldn't vaccines be produced in absolute sterile environments?

Viruses need living cells to grow on/in and cells need feeding. That is organic material.

Nobody knows yet whether other species are infected.

 

[lansbergen]

Is it really a "benefit" to sacrifice a few to save the herd? I guess maybe it is from a purely physical survival perspective. But is it ethical to expect people to draw straws on such a gamble without being told the short straw may mean a life of torture? I say not at all, unless the decision to participate is proceeded by adequate informed consent. If anyone wishes to risk themselves for good of the many fully understanding the risks, I will call them a hero. But when some take the fall for the many without having been fully informed before consenting to the risks....I say that's unethical, especially since most may be kids.

Of course vaccines are involved in some way with neuroimmune and xmrv related disease....discovering exactly how will have to be continued.

If you want to take the risks of e.g. wild poliovirus infection suit yourself. I am glad my parents did not take that risk.

There is enough information to educate yourself.

In my country everybody is free to decide whether or not to let their children and/or themselfes be vaccinated.

Because of that we still have some places where wildvirus infections occure and that makes that wildvirus circulates also outside these circles and doing that boost the defense of vaccinated persons.

 

[leela]

From http://www.ccid.org/newdev.htm (lots of interesting info there)


Extensive research into the field of stealth viruses has been done and while once this was a very controversial issue with many doubting even the existence of these types of viruses, they have now been scientifically proven to exist. Culturing methods for these viruses has improved and hard sequence data is now available on them which show how these viruses have assembled themselves, the way that they've recombined with other genes, the cellular, viral, bacterial origins. And it is now known that the stealth virus can take varying structural forms but it has the basic capacity to imbed itself in the brain, persist in the brain causing brain dysfunction. Unfortunately, a very real result of all this research has shown that that stealth viral infections can progress to very severe illness, including death.

And now it has also been found that stealth viruses are even more menacing because it has been discovered that they have the ability to acquire sequences of bacterial and even fungal origin. This strongly suggests that stealth viruses become viteria by infecting bacteria. Viteria are animal viruses that have incorporated bacterial genetic sequences. A brief summary of the viteria concept has been sento the FDA NIH and CDC and can be read here.
Viteria: A Menacing New Life Form
More can be read about viteria in this article. A Statement on Viteria

The stealth virus has now been shown to be involved with many chronic disabling illnesses such as Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, autism, Attention Deficit Disorder and many other diseases involving neurodegenerative symptoms with encephalopathy. There is a broad spectrum of symptoms involved with stealth virus infection which leads to the term multi-system stealth virus infection with encephalopathy (MSVIE). This has been seen in many, many patients tested by Dr. John Martin and now, unfortunately, this wide array of baffling symptoms is now also being seen in physicians that treat CFS patients. The case studies of 4 physicans with a wide array of differing symptoms is described in the paper CFS Among Physicians. These physicians all reported different signs and symptoms of their illness. They were all diagnosed as having CFS and all of them tested positive for the stealth virus.

When live SV-40 virus was found in formulin treated poliovrus vaccine, a switch was made to use kidney cells from African Green Monkeys using a live (attenuated) strain of poliovirus. Kidney cultures from all 12 monkeys tested grew out simian cytomegalovirus. Sequencing studies done by Dr. Martin on the stealth virus indicate that it originated in SCMV but the CDC and FDA have exhibited an unwillingness to have their vaccine safety procedures reviewed. Dr. Martin writes an in-depth account of the cover-up by government agencies of the contamination of vaccines even though SCMV is still being found in poliovaccine and the deadly risk of stealth virus infection that exists for children who are made to use these vaccines. Read the article Vaccine Safety

 

[Otis]

Couldn't they run vaccines (by the lot, perhaps?) across a gene 'chip' and sew what get? Seems like a reasonable and inexpensive method that would catch a large percentage of unintended contaminants.

 

[Cloud]

If you want to take the risks of e.g. wild poliovirus infection suit yourself. I am glad my parents did not take that risk.

There is enough information to educate yourself.

In my country everybody is free to decide whether or not to let their children and/or themselfes be vaccinated.

Because of that we still have some places where wildvirus infections occure and that makes that wildvirus circulates also outside these circles and doing that boost the defense of vaccinated persons.

That's really cool....what country are you in? I have never heard of that advantage of the wild virus infections around the vaccinated people....that's really interesting. I would like to know more about that.

In the hospital, we do a lot of patient teaching for their upcoming procedures. We explain all the benefits and risks, we ask if they have any questions, and if not, we then ask if they are willing to take responsibility for their decision and release us from liability by signing an informed consent. The "informed" part is that they have received and understand all the information, and have no further questions or concerns.....well, the informed part is what's missing with the consent to vaccinate....at least that's true here. People are only told the benefits, but very little about the risks.

I am not against vaccines in general....that would be foolish...there would be lots less people on this planet, and they would all be in wheelchairs. I just think people should be given the TRUE facts on vaccine risks as well as benefits before vaccinating. It will be a great day when are able to pre-screen out those who will react negatively to vaccines. Problem solved.

Just a thought.....Natural selection may require "Active Immunity" for our species to survive. And if that's true, we are only buying time and delaying the inevitable with our drugs. So, we can get to it now, or later after the bugs have outsmarted all our drugs. I know.....later sounds better.

 

[Cloud]

More on green monkeys.... http://www.whale.to/vaccines/sweet.html


Some of it is a bit out there for me. But some is worth the read too.....

"As many as 26 of the simian contaminants were readily detected but still other viruses, like SV40 slipped past rigorous quality control testing procedures available at that time. The simian viruses were inadvertently introduced into the vaccine pool because the polio virus was grown in monkey (Rhesus, Patas, or Cynomolgus) kidney cells".

"Microbiologist Howard Urnovitz is one member of a team who believes many of today's new syndromes like Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, Gulf War-Related Illnesses and even HIV have, "some association with the possible contaminants in the vaccine." He says we may be paying the price for "prevention" years later, as the uncertainty about the effects on our immune system from the vaccine continues to unfold".

 

[Mya Symons]

Interesting video about a vaccine contaminated by a pig virus http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6Q-T4jWIrc
Also, I've been looking on the internet and found that there are many stories about vaccines and flu shots being contaminated. Do you remember when there was a flu shot shortage when George Bush was in office? It turns out that the flu shots were contaminated with a bacteria. The bacteria was usually harmless unless injected into a person. I think for these pharmaceutical companies, it tends to be more about money than quality control and safety.

 

[Mya Symons]

The question remains how XMRV gets into the vaccine. Shouldn't vaccines be produced in absolute sterile environments?

This is a post from illsince1977 on another thread here. I hope they do not mind me reposting it. I thought illsince1977 gave a really good discription on how the whole vaccine contamination could have happened.

Originally Posted by Mya Symons
"I found this here: http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/Animal...s/vaccines.htm

Quality Control
In vaccine production, mice are used most extensively for quality control. Vaccine formulations include constituents such as living tissues, viruses and bacteria. Thus, since all vaccine batches are not the same, their content and effects must be tested regularly at selected stages of production to monitor safety, as required by federal regulations."

Did you find this part interesting/ironic because they use mice to test for bad outcomes as the result of the vaccines, and the mice would never get XMRV because lab mice lack the XPR1 receptor necessary to express XMRV? That's what struck me when I read about quality control.



From (transcription and any mistakes are mine. Yes it was full of run-on sentences!)
YouTube - CROI 2010: Dr Goff on XMRV

It was really discovered in a kind of funny way, because mice that we work with don’t have the appropriate receptor for this virus, so they aren’t actually capable of sustaining an infection. So the only source of this virus is this integrative copy that’s been in the genome for a very long time.

And the way it was discovered was in the 70s when people started passing human cell lines through mice, human cells have the receptor – most mammals do – and when the human cells were passed through the mice and then recovered out of the mice, they almost invariably acquired this virus. The mice had low levels, they passed it to the human cells – the human cells were very able to be infected. And so when human cells were studied after they’d been through a mouse, lo and behold! They had this very interesting virus which people assumed was a human virus in the early days, but were misled – it was a mouse virus. And people have studied it at a low level, basically since the 70s, not worrying very much about it at the time, but …
and
From
Retroviruses - Google Books
RetrovirusesBy John M. Coffin, Harold E. Varmus, 1999, p.77
Although xenotropic viruses will not infect cells of inbred strains of mice, they will infect cells derived from some wild mice and species of mice other than M. Musculus (Hartley and Rowe 1975; Lander and Chadopadhyay 1984).




Science can be very arrogant about controlling for all those pesky variables!
Then it turns out there was one sneaky little variable they just never thought to control for that is really controlling their experiments.

George even said the same above in a kind of round about way:

Little's innovation was the "inbred strain." ... Before inbred strains, scientists couldn't say for certain whether their results were because of the genetic quirks of a particular mouse or the experiments.
Just don't you dare bring the possibility of vaccine contamination into the discussion with them because they'll think you're one of those National Enquirer devouring, Area 51, crop circle, alien kidnapping wild theorists!

If you challenge the theoretical underpinnings of their research there must be something wrong with you! Only other scientists possess the credentials to question them, and then only when granted permission.


Maybe I'm just being a little cynical today, sorry!

Doees anyone else see the same possibility here?

-Susan

HERE is the link to Susan's (illsince1977's) post on the original thread "new twiv on xmrv" http://www.forums.aboutmecfs.org/showthread.php?7530-New-twiv-on-xmrv&p=125926#post125926

 

[guest]

Thanks a lot for the replies.

Susan you are cynical but correct. It's absolutely crazy that we probably promote the spreading of XMRV by infecting people through vaccines and none of the scientific experts who are responsible, speak about it.

 

[lansbergen]

I have never heard of that advantage of the wild virus infections around the vaccinated people....that's really interesting. I would like to know more about that.

The purpose of vaccination is to prime the immune system so that it can quickly fight wildvirus.

see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccination

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_T_cell

Memory T cell

1. After the naive T cell (N) encounters an antigen it becomes activated and begins to proliferate
2. Some of the T cell clones will differentiate into effector T cells (E) that will perform the function of that cell (e.g. produce cytokines in the case of helper T cells or invoke cell killing in the case of cytotoxic T cells).
3. Some of the cells will form memory T cells (M) that will survive in an inactive state in the host for a long period of time until they re-encounter the same antigen and reactivate.

Memory T cells are a subset of infection- as well as potentially cancer-fighting T cells (also known as a T lymphocyte) that have previously encountered and responded to their cognate antigen; thus, the term antigen-experienced T cell is often applied. Such T cells can recognize foreign invaders, such as bacteria or viruses, as well as cancer cells. Memory T cells have become "experienced" by having encountered antigen during a prior infection, encounter with cancer, or previous vaccination. At a second encounter with the invader, memory T cells can reproduce to mount a faster and stronger immune response than the first time the immune system responded to the invader. This behaviour is utilized in T lymphocyte proliferation assays, which can reveal exposure to specific antigens.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_B_cell

Memory B cell

In wake of first (primary response) infection involving a particular antigen, the responding naїve (ones which have never been exposed to the antigen) cells proliferate to produce a colony of cells, most of which differentiate into the plasma cells, also called effector B cells (which produce the antibodies) and clear away with the resolution of infection, and the rest persist as the memory cells that can survive for years, or even a lifetime.

Moreover, with each such exposure to the antigen the number of different clones responding to the same antigen increases (polyclonal response), and a greater number of memory cells persist. Thus, a stronger (basically, larger number of antibody molecules) and more specific antibody-production are the hallmarks of secondary antibody response.

The facts that all the cells of a single clone elaborate one and only one paratope, and that the memory cells survive for long periods, are what impart a "memory" to the immune response.

This is the principle behind vaccination and administration of booster doses.(divide) into many clones or daughter cells.

 

[lansbergen]

Nobody seen this?

They made a human lymphoma cell line infected with xenotropic murine type-C retrovirus.

FL stays for: follicular lymphoma


http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...1e9391de77dad70c3988777c70510a16&searchtype=a

Annales de l'Institut Pasteur. Virologie 1984

Non-productive chronic infection of human cells by a xenotropic murine type-C retrovirus

F. Cavaliri, F Saal, L. D'Auriol, R. Emanoil-Ravicovitch and J. Pris

Summary

We report the establishment and characterization of a non-productive (NP) chronic infection of a human cell line (FL) by a xenotropic murine type-C retrovirus from Mus molossinus mouse (Mol-MuLV-X). The NP chronically infected cells (FL/Mol) do not show any virus particles detectable by electron microscopy, nor do they release any virus detectable either by reverse transcriptase activity assay or by inoculation of culture supernatants onto permissive cells. Most of the FL cells are shown to be infected, as demonstrated by specific immunofluorescence. The totality of provirus DNA genetic information is present, as demonstrated by specific molecular hybridization, and infectious Mol-MuLV-X virions can be rescued from co-cultures with permissive cells after fusion with polyethylene glycol. The integrated provirus DNA is transcribed, and both main species (24S and 35S) of viral RNA are synthesized. Antigenic determinants of both virus p30gag and gp70env proteins are easily detected. Polyacrylamide gel electrophoresis analysis of immunoprecipitated cell lysates of NP FL/Mol cells did not show any anomaly in the synthesis of the virus p30gag protein and its precursors. Anti-gp70 immune serum precipitated the 85 kd gp70 precursor and a gp70 which migrated slightly faster than that found in productively infected human cell lines.

 

[Cloud]

Thanks Lansbergen...great explanation on the positive aspects of exposing Active Immunity to Passive Immunity (same antigen). It puts a different perspective on those who do not vaccinate as being a threat to the herd. Immunity is really interesting, yet so complex.

 

[Mya Symons]

I wonder if scientists dismissed possible Murine Leukemia Retro Virus infection because they thought that a mouse retrovirus was too far away from the human genome to worry about. When HIV was first discovered the theory was it infected humans because it came from a monkey that was a close genetic relative to humans. Further, they have been using fetal stem cells to make vaccines since the MMR vaccine. It is my understanding that these fetal cells were limited under certain (presidential) administrations. Perhaps they knew about XMRV but did not have any more cells to work with? This might be a crazy conspiracy theory, I don't know. Does it help that I don't believe in Alien Kidnappings?

 

[leela]

Contaminated innoculations don't seem that far out to me, as some have been documented, and since animal organ tissue has been used to culitvate (is that the right word) vaccines. It *would* explain *a lot* about the CDC and GMC (is that the British version?) bizarre stance of ignoring and denying the disease at a certain time in history--remembering that M.E. was used without question before the 1980's. Tinfoil hat on or off, this CFS business, and the subsequent denialsim/negligence occurred at just about the same time as when HIV hit, which seems suspect to me. I don't think it would be too nutsoid to suspect that some vaccination program went wrong and there have been a lot of people covering their collective butt ever since. That would be one honkin' class-action suit....

 

[Daffodil]

although possible, i dont think the majority of cases of CFS are vaccine related. it cannot explain the outbreaks in convents and schools

 

[leela]

it cannot explain the outbreaks in convents and schools

Well, it maybe could if you
a) don't consider XMRV to be the exclusive cause of CFS, but just a player
b) consider that there are other routes of transmission

I guess what I mean to say is, when I start fashioning headwear from tinfoil, I can imagine the virus (or some other immune-harmful agent) being introduced into
the general the population in that way, and it subsequently spreading via whatever other transmisison pathways it uses.

 

[Mya Symons]

Were the kids in the outbreaks about at the age when they receive their second or third MMR shot? If I remember right, my kids were about 11 or 12 when they received their last MMR vaccine. There is also someone on another thread who has a link to some research that there are some wild mice that can carry and possibly spread Murine Leukemia viruses. I think the study was on prostate cancer in China and they found higher rates of prostate cancer in the areas where these particular mice lived. Further, as I understand, sometimes XMRV has a long gestation period (is that the right word?) before symptoms hit (maybe at puberty since it likes androgens and hormones?). Could that mean that it is possible a vaccine they got years ago was suddenly making them sick later? Possibly both vaccines and wild mice could be the way it spreads?