could ox bile or proteolytic enzymes cause acid reflux?

[ebethc]

I've been thinking about trying TUDCA instead. It's just so damned expensive.

what is TUDCA? how is it different from taurine?

 

[ebethc]

Hmm. I just ordered Jarrow Bile Acid Factors because I couldn't tolerate Nutricology Ox Bile. From what you're saying it is likely to be even less tolerable.

what's the difference between the two?

 

[ebethc]

I've been taking ox bile for about 3 weeks now. I have noticed a definite increase in energy, clarity of mind, less PEM and when I do get some PEM, it's much milder and doesn't last nearly as long as it use to before I started the ox bile. I have taken this same ox bile before, at a higher dose and didn't notice any benefits.

This time though, I am on a low carb diet and it seems to make all the difference in how much it helps. I am taking a very low dose, only 262mg a day, but it really is making a big difference.

I am seeing and feeling improvements week to week. As I said though, I have been on a low carb diet (the specific carbohydrate diet) for 8 months and I think that is a big part of why I am getting such good results.

I buy tablets from Swansons Vitamins and cut them up into quarters so I can slowly increase the dose.

what's the safe upper limit for ox bile? is it too variable to tell?

interesting that the ox bile didn't work until you combined it w low carbing...I think that combo would be good for me, too... the low carb diet can be so confusing... do you define "low" carbs by # of carb grams? glycemic index? glycemic load?

any good resources to learn more about ox bile? I tried betaine hcl and it did nothing

 

[ljimbo423]

what's the safe upper limit for ox bile?

I have done a lot of reading about ox bile and haven't read any references to safe upper limits or toxicity. I have also read many customer reviews from people that have bought it as a supplement and it seems that high doses can cause loose stool or diarrhea in some people.

I have IBS-D and am very sensitive to many supplements in that regard but have not had any problems with the ox bile.

do you define "low" carbs by # of carb grams? glycemic index? glycemic load?

By low carb I mean 80-100 grams a day. I am treating SIBO/dysbiosis with the specific carbohydrate diet, which allows carbs from certain fruits, veggies, and even honey or dextrose. I use a lot of olive oil, some butter and protein to make sure I get at least 2,000 calories a day.

any good resources to learn more about ox bile?

Sorry, I don't have any good resources for ox bile I can remember, but if I find any I will post them.

 

[ljimbo423]

@ebethc
BA means bile acids

4. Bile Acid Signalling

BA metabolites as a result of microbial transformations act as signaling molecules and have demonstrated regulation of intestinal homeostasis through the TGR5 and FXR by inhibiting inflammation, preventing pathogen invasion, and maintaining cell integrity. TGR5 is principally activated by secondary BAs, including DCA and LCA. This receptor minimizes production of proinflammatory cytokines (IL-1α, IL-2β, IL-6, and TNFα) stimulated by lipopolysaccharides in macrophages and Kupffer cells through inhibition of NF-kB [24]. Activation of the BA receptor FXR protects against bacterial overgrowth and translocation in the distal small intestine and resultant disruption to the gut epithelial barrier through the regulation of several genes, including Ang1, Inos, and IL18, which have recognized antimicrobial actions [25]. The degree of activation of BA receptors is influenced primarily by the gut microbiota and therefore dysbiosis may result in abnormal BA modification resulting in the development of gastrointestinal disease.

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/grp/2015/398585/

It seems very clear to me, after reading this and a few other research papers on bile acids and gut health, that bile acids are crucial to maintaining a healthy microbiome and to help prevent leaky gut.

My noticeable increase in energy and clarity of mind from taking bile acids, from ox bile, makes a lot of sense given this information.

Ox bile is about 40% bile acids by the way.

 

[ebethc]

@ebethc
BA means bile acids

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/grp/2015/398585/

It seems very clear to me, after reading this and a few other research papers on bile acids and gut health, that bile acids are crucial to maintaining a healthy microbiome and to help prevent leaky gut.

My noticeable increase in energy and clarity of mind from taking bile acids, from ox bile, makes a lot of sense given this information.

Ox bile is about 40% bile acids by the way.

I'm coming to the same conclusion... Maybe that's my root problem? I have extremely poor NK cell function and a mast cell disorder... Have you come across any literature that links poor bile acid production (upstream) to downstream problems of NK cell function and mast cell problems?

 

[ljimbo423]

I have extremely poor NK cell function and a mast cell disorder... Have you come across any literature that links poor bile acid production (upstream) to downstream problems of NK cell function and mast cell problems?

I don't have any info linking bile acid production, NK cell function, and mast cell problems. There is info linking lipopolysaccharides (LPS) from bacteria in the gut to mast cell activation, causing a leaky gut.

The histamine, cytokines etc, from the mast cell activation in the gut, could cause symptoms anywhere in the body. How does your mast cell disorder manifest? Here is a study that talks about mast cell activation from LPS in the gut.

Lipopolysaccharide Activates Human Mast Cells To Induce Intestinal Epithelial Barrier Dysfunction

Conclusion: LPS can induce human mast cells to release chemical mediators such as tryptase that can compromise the intestinal epithelial barrier function.

My hunch is that NK cells are also activated by low grade exposure to LPS and they eventually become low from chronic activation. It reminds of a time a year or so ago, I got the flu twice in about 3 weeks.

It weaken my immune system so much, I got the shingles (a reactivation of the chicken pox virus) for the first time in my adult life, very painful! Shingles only appear when one's immune system is low for some reason.

I took very large doses of echinacea (immune system stimulant) and within 2 days the blisters stopped spreading and within another day or 2 the ones I had were gone. Just one example of how a stressed immune system can weaken and become low.

 

[ljimbo423]

@ebethc Here is a study showing NK cell activation from lipopolysaccharides in the gut.

Natural killer (NK) cells have been shown to play a regulatory role in sepsis. According to the current view, NK cells become activated via macrophages or dendritic cells primed by lipopolysaccharide (LPS).Recently, TLR4 gene expression was detected in human NK cells suggesting the possibility of a direct action of LPS on NK cells.

 

[ebethc]

@ebethc Here is a study showing NK cell activation from lipopolysaccharides in the gut.

so, how do you lower LPS? by healing leaky gut?

 

[ljimbo423]

so, how do you lower LPS? by healing leaky gut?

Yes, healing a leaky gut will dramatically lower the amount of LPS getting into the blood stream, causing symptoms. Everybody has some LPS that leak into the blood stream from the gut, that's normal.

As long as it's not too much, they don't have symptoms. A leaky gut allows too much LPS into the blood stream, causing an immune system reaction and symptoms. If you have SIBO/dysbiosis, that is probably what is causing a leaky gut. The LPS come from the bacteria causing the SIBO/dysbiosis.

The bacterial overgrowth/dysbiosis needs to be brought back into balance, to heal a leaky gut. A low carb diet and antibiotic herbs or antibiotics like rifaximin, if you have a doctor to prescribe them, will knock down the dysbiosis and allow the leaky gut to heal. I have made really good progress in the last 3-4 months with the low carb diet, antibiotic herbs and ox bile.

The die off from the bacteria in the gut though, making my symptoms worse, keeps me from getting to the dose of antibiotic herbs I need, to get rid of the dysbiosis and heal the leaky gut as fast as I would like! I have to settle for slow but steady progress. Slow and steady progress though, is giving me a lot of hope for getting well!! I might do a course of antibiotics to speed things up, if I can tolerate them.

 

[nandixon]

Yes, healing a leaky gut will dramatically lower the amount of LPS getting into the blood stream, causing symptoms.

There's also a bit of a "chicken and the egg" situation here, because LPS can be a contributing cause of the damage to the intestine in the first place.

One supplement some ME/CFS patients have had success with is oxymatrine (used by Dr Chia). I'm not sure what its true beneficial effect is, but it's potentially able to ameliorate the effects of LPS by reducing the NF-κB nuclear translocation that LPS induces. (Reference)

I haven't tried oxymatrine myself yet, but it should probably be taken with cimetidine in order to negate oxymatrine's unfavorable impact (for ME/CFS purposes) of inhibiting the Akt/mTOR (mTORC1) pathway. Dr Chia apparently also recommends that combination for their "synergy."

 

[ljimbo423]

There's also a bit of a "chicken and the egg" situation here, because LPS can be a contributing cause of the damage to the intestine in the first place.

I agree. I mention that LPS from dysbiosis can cause a leaky gut, a little further down in my post.

I tried oxymatrine, at a fairly high dose of 900mg a day for a little over a year but didn't see any real benefits. I had not heard of combining it with cimetidine at the time, so I don't know if that would have helped or not.

 

[ebethc]

Yes, healing a leaky gut will dramatically lower the amount of LPS getting into the blood stream, causing symptoms. Everybody has some LPS that leak into the blood stream from the gut, that's normal.

As long as it's not too much, they don't have symptoms. A leaky gut allows too much LPS into the blood stream, causing an immune system reaction and symptoms. If you have SIBO/dysbiosis, that is probably what is causing a leaky gut. The LPS come from the bacteria causing the SIBO/dysbiosis.

can lps be measured? this would be a good way to measure results for healing leaky gut

did you say that SCD was the low carb diet that you followed? low carb is confusing.. do you measure glycemic index, carb grams, glycemic load or something else?

thx

 

[ljimbo423]

can lps be measured?

Yes, I think that LPS in the blood can be measured, but I don't think that test is available to the general public.

did you say that SCD was the low carb diet that you followed? low carb is confusing.. do you measure glycemic index, carb grams, glycemic load or something else?

Yes, the SCD is the diet I am following, and low carb can be very confusing. I don't measure glycemic index/load, carb grams, or anything, I just stay on the allowed foods and it works very well.

The SCD is based on foods that are absorbed fairly quickly, at the beginning of the small intestine, so they don't feed the SIBO/dysbiosis further down the GI tract. So the amount of carbs that you eat isn't nearly as important as if you were eating potatoes, rice, pasta, oatmeal etc.

These are foods that are jet fuel for bacterial overgrowth and are not part of the SCD. They have starches etc. that are very hard to breakdown and absorb so they are great food for bacterial overgrowth.

Here is a list of SCD foods that are what they call "legal and illegal". The legal list is the one to try to stay with.

can lps be measured? this would be a good way to measure results for healing leaky gut

I can tell that my SIBO/dysbiosis is being brought into balance and my leaky gut must be healing because of the improvements in symptoms. There have been many times when I felt better from some supplement or protocol but it only lasted a few days or a few weeks. This time it has lasted 2-3 months and I continue to improve consistently.

 

[ebethc]

Here is a list of SCD foods that are what they call "legal and illegal". The legal list is the one to try to stay with.

I can tell that my SIBO/dysbiosis is being brought into balance and my leaky gut must be healing because of the improvements in symptoms. There have been many times when I felt better from some supplement or protocol but it only lasted a few days or a few weeks. This time it has lasted 2-3 months and I continue to improve consistently.

I skimmed the list and it looks like grains, beans, and potatoes (incl sweet potatoes) are off limits... does that sum it up?

congrats on finding something that gives you sustained results!

 

[ljimbo423]

I skimmed the list and it looks like grains, beans, and potatoes (incl sweet potatoes) are off limits... does that sum it up?

I think those are the biggies. I was on a low carb diet a little over a year ago, but went too low on carbs (20-30gms/day) and felt miserable. So I decided to try a regular carb diet again, about 150-200 gms/day.

I felt better for about a week, then started feeling worse over the next 2 weeks, to the point where I was struggling to stay out of bed. I haven't felt like that in a few years, so I knew it was the carbs.

That absolutely convinced me that starches from grains, potatoes etc. were causing devastating symptoms. That's probably the biggest reason I've been able to stay on the SCD for about 8 months now.

congrats on finding something that gives you sustained results!

Thanks. I hope you are able to find something that consistently helps you as well!

 

[ebethc]

I think those are the biggies. I was on a low carb diet a little over a year ago, but went too low on carbs (20-30gms/day) and felt miserable. So I decided to try a regular carb diet again, about 150-200 gms/day.

I felt better for about a week, then started feeling worse over the next 2 weeks, to the point where I was struggling to stay out of bed. I haven't felt like that in a few years, so I knew it was the carbs.

That absolutely convinced me that starches from grains, potatoes etc. were causing devastating symptoms. That's probably the biggest reason I've been able to stay on the SCD for about 8 months now.

why do you think that carbs affect pain - e.g., is it the carb effect on glucose/insulin OR impact on microbiome OR combo OR something else?

i'm asking b/c if it's impact on microbiome, then presumably you could go back to eating normally once you've killed off all the dysbiosis

 

[ljimbo423]

why do you think that carbs affect pain - e.g., is it the carb effect on glucose/insulin OR impact on microbiome OR combo OR something else?

I think carbs worsen my pain, fatigue and flu-like symptoms because carbs feed the bacterial overgrowth/SIBO I have, causing the bacteria to multiply even faster. The bacteria have lipopolysaccharides (LPS) as part of what makes up their outer membrane.

So more bacteria, means more bacteria that die off, which means more LPS from their outer membrane leak into the bloodstream causing symptoms.

i'm asking b/c if it's impact on microbiome, then presumably you could go back to eating normally once you've killed off all the dysbiosis

It might be possible to go back to a normal diet once the microbiome is rebalanced. Depending on what you mean by normal. I think most people that have long term success, without getting another bacterial overgrowth or SIBO, stay on a fairly low carb diet but are able to eat carbs in moderation.