Could methylation be harming my sensitive liver?

[Mels]

Hi, I am new to all this! I have been unwell for about 3 years since doctors gave me a massive dose of Ramipril 3 weeks after having an episode of Takotsubo;I had been ridiculously fit and healthy until a stressful event triggered thi sone off heart episode. They then whacked me on evern higher dose of oxprenolol to try to reduce bp which I knew was only high due to ramipril reaction....and so on! They then took me off oxprenolol too quickly which gave me mitral valve proplapse-previous scans showed heart was in good nick! It took ages to get better from oxprenolol side effects, then I had dental hygienist appointment which left me with terrible aches, sharp pain in chest.....then months later chronic fatigue hit in big time. I am convinvced I have undiagnosed endocarditis on top of everything else but Docs will not listen. About Feb last year I was feeling best I had in ages then got a terrible cold - bed ridden for a week, laid up another week then began to improve. To help with this I used oregano oil which......gave me toxic side effects. Liver enzymes all fine, but I was feeling just as I had with oxprenolol. Should add at this point I can no longer tolerate any medication since the oxprenolol. My liver has been up and down since this, and I tried things like glutathione which I could take a year ago but can't tolerate now.....I got v excited reading about methylation and have had 2 days taking meythlfolate and b 12 and was weeing a normal colour for first time in ages and feeling much more me like.....but today the toxic liver symptoms are all coming back .I did well with coffee enemas until 3 weeks ago, but think as they triggered glutathione I went into over methylation with potassium issues for 5 days then back to feeling rubbish. I am concerned jhat my liver cannot tolerate methylation......any suggestions. Please. Life is such a struggle. I have 4 beauthiful children and I just want to be around for them. Thank you. And Happy New Year to all. I am in UK.

 

[Violeta]

I read some articles about the liver by Chris Masterjohn in which he explains that a congested liver (he calles it fatty liver) cause methylation problems, not the other way around. The medicines you took may have caused liver problems. So you might want to try to work on your liver before taking methylfolate and B12 if they cause problems.

 

[beaverfury]

Hi, I am new to all this! I have been unwell for about 3 years since doctors gave me a massive dose of Ramipril 3 weeks after having an episode of Takotsubo;I had been ridiculously fit and healthy until a stressful event triggered thi sone off heart episode. They then whacked me on evern higher dose of oxprenolol to try to reduce bp which I knew was only high due to ramipril reaction....and so on! They then took me off oxprenolol too quickly which gave me mitral valve proplapse-previous scans showed heart was in good nick! It took ages to get better from oxprenolol side effects, then I had dental hygienist appointment which left me with terrible aches, sharp pain in chest.....then months later chronic fatigue hit in big time. I am convinvced I have undiagnosed endocarditis on top of everything else but Docs will not listen. About Feb last year I was feeling best I had in ages then got a terrible cold - bed ridden for a week, laid up another week then began to improve. To help with this I used oregano oil which......gave me toxic side effects. Liver enzymes all fine, but I was feeling just as I had with oxprenolol. Should add at this point I can no longer tolerate any medication since the oxprenolol. My liver has been up and down since this, and I tried things like glutathione which I could take a year ago but can't tolerate now.....I got v excited reading about methylation and have had 2 days taking meythlfolate and b 12 and was weeing a normal colour for first time in ages and feeling much more me like.....but today the toxic liver symptoms are all coming back .I did well with coffee enemas until 3 weeks ago, but think as they triggered glutathione I went into over methylation with potassium issues for 5 days then back to feeling rubbish. I am concerned jhat my liver cannot tolerate methylation......any suggestions. Please. Life is such a struggle. I have 4 beauthiful children and I just want to be around for them. Thank you. And Happy New Year to all. I am in UK.

I'm no expert, but i don't like the sound of coffee enemas. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffee_enema

-"Coffee enemas can cause numerous side effects, including infections, sepsis (including campylobacter sepsis), severe electrolyte imbalance, colitis, polymicrobial enteric septicemia,proctocolitis, salmonella, brain abscess, and heart failure.[4][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13] Long term use of coffee enemas can lead to malabsorption of fat, fat-soluble vitamins, and calcium.

The use of coffee enemas has led to several deaths as a result of severe electrolyte imbalance, hyponatremia, dehydration, pleural and pericardial effusions.[8][16] The U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has ruled that study participants must be warned of the risk of death from coffee enemas in studies that use them.[17][18]"

Have you tested yourself for MTHFR snp's , or any other snp's that may be giving you methylation issues ?
How do you know you have a methylation problem?

In any case..start slow. Read everything by Fredd, Rich, Ben Lynch that you can, as well as some dissenting opinions. I think it can take a long time to tweak the right combination and dosage for an individual. I am still tweaking after two years.

If you are a cfs person with liver problems you may need to deal with any gut problems you have before achieving any success with methylation.

 

[Sea]

@beaverfury you mean Freddd. It's an important distinction for us to keep in mind as we now also have a new member Fredd.

 

[beaverfury]

Oh, yeah..sorry. Freddd ! ..with 3D

 

[ahmo]

Here's some excellent coffee enema info. I've just completed one. ahmo http://www.mygutsy.com/the-ultimate-liver-detox-coffee-enemas/

 

[Helen]

Happy New Year to all. A New Year, hopefully new possibilities,

@Mels
I would be careful with detox and liver treatment protocols with the experiences that you have had. If possible for you, I think a 23andme genetest particularly for the detox panel from GeneticGenie would be of great value.
My detox panel that I had years ago from Genovations, DetoxiGenomics , explained all struggles I had had. GeneticGenies detox panel is a copy of that, at least with the SNP´s ("genes") that are comparable. I had also normal liver lab test results..

 

[Mels]

I read some articles about the liver by Chris Masterjohn in which he explains that a congested liver (he calles it fatty liver) cause methylation problems, not the other way around. The medicines you took may have caused liver problems. So you might want to try to work on your liver before taking methylfolate and B12 if they cause problems.

Thank you so much, this would make so much sense in my case! I'm going to read up on fatty liver now! Anybody know of a way of identifying fatty liver....is it by scan/biopsy/different blood test to the normal liver function on....? Thank you!

 

[Mels]

Happy New Year to all. A New Year, hopefully new possibilities,

@Mels
I would be careful with detox and liver treatment protocols with the experiences that you have had. If possible for you, I think a 23andme genetest particularly for the detox panel from GeneticGenie would be of great value.
My detox panel that I had years ago from Genovations, DetoxiGenomics , explained all struggles I had had. GeneticGenies detox panel is a copy of that, at least with the SNP´s ("genes") that are comparable. I had also normal liver lab test results..

Happy New Year to all. A New Year, hopefully new possibilities,

Thanks Helen, I have just sent blood off to Amy Yasko.....does the23andme test provide more info? Should I do that too? I am desperate for as much info as possible. I am also hoping to do the methylation panel by vitamin diagnostic.....though if it is my liver causing the methylation block not sure if that would be beneficial. Think this is turning in to a "chicken and egg" case!

 

[caledonia]

I did some research on Ramipril. You're supposed to titrate up from small doses. There are starter packs for this.

You could also have some sort of CYP mutation that makes the detoxification of Ramipril slower, so you don't need as high of an amount. I tried to look it up on the Detoxigenomics document. The nearest I could find was a couple of other angiotension II inhibiters listed under CYP2C9. I couldn't find oxprenolol or anything close to it listed.

The liver is where most of the glutathione resides. A stress episode triggering off heart stuff makes me think that you were already borderline on glutathione, and that was a "last straw" that set off this cascade of events, making you sick. The massive doses of medications just added to the pile.

It's common for ME/CFS patients to have problems tolerating medications, to get worse at the dentist (more chemicals!), etc.

So I can't really say if you have ME/CFS, but you do seem to have a lot of hits for methylation problems. That's a good sign that B12 and folate helped for a few days.

If you have the money, I suggest getting a 23andme gene test and a Nutreval test, which is a functional test of what's going on in your body. At a bare minimum get the 23andme test, so we can look at your methylation and detox genes. That one's only $99, so it's a no-brainer for most people.

One other point, is you're going way too fast on treatments and that's going to cause problems. Read the Start Low and Go Slow document in my signature. The Methylation Made Easy videos are also good for beginners.

Do you have any mercury fillings, exposure to lead, paints, cleaning products, formaldehyde, etc. from work or hobbies? Any anesthesia, such as nitrous oxide at the dentist? All this stuff adds up.

 

[Mels]

I did some research on Ramipril. You're supposed to titrate up from small doses. There are starter packs for this.

You could also have some sort of CYP mutation that makes the detoxification of Ramipril slower, so you don't need as high of an amount. I tried to look it up on the Detoxigenomics document. The nearest I could find was a couple of other angiotension II inhibiters listed under CYP2C9. I couldn't find oxprenolol or anything close to it listed.

The liver is where most of the glutathione resides. A stress episode triggering off heart stuff makes me think that you were already borderline on glutathione, and that was a "last straw" that set off this cascade of events, making you sick. The massive doses of medications just added to the pile.

It's common for ME/CFS patients to have problems tolerating medications, to get worse at the dentist (more chemicals!), etc.

So I can't really say if you have ME/CFS, but you do seem to have a lot of hits for methylation problems. That's a good sign that B12 and folate helped for a few days.

If you have the money, I suggest getting a 23andme gene test and a Nutreval test, which is a functional test of what's going on in your body. At a bare minimum get the 23andme test, so we can look at your methylation and detox genes. That one's only $99, so it's a no-brainer for most people.

One other point, is you're going way too fast on treatments and that's going to cause problems. Read the Start Low and Go Slow document in my signature. The Methylation Made Easy videos are also good for beginners.

Do you have any mercury fillings, exposure to lead, paints, cleaning products, formaldehyde, etc. from work or hobbies? Any anesthesia, such as nitrous oxide at the dentist? All this stuff adds up.

Hi, thank you so much for all of this. Yes, I do have mercury issues.....have found a dentist who is aware of the importance of removing mercury safely, and am hoping to get started ASAP. Though I am concerned that I may react badly to local aneasthetic as am now v sensitive to chemicals, and, as am very poor detoxer, may also suffer from effects of taking out the mercury. One thing is clear though.....those fillings need to come out!

 

[Little Bluestem]

When I had elevated liver enzymes, Rich advised me to treat that before doing methylation treatment.

 

[Mels]

Thank you. Would you mind telling me what worked for your liver enzymes, please? And how long did it take? I know we are all different but it is good to know about others.I am v sensitive to supplements, ESP b's..... But have read that choline can help with fatty liver.

 

[Helen]

Hi @Mels,

Quote:"does the23andme test provide more info? Should I do that too? I am desperate for as much info as possible. I am also hoping to do the methylation panel by vitamin diagnostic.....though if it is my liver causing the methylation block not sure if that would be beneficial. Think this is turning in to a "chicken and egg" case! " quote

Yes, again I think you should do a 23andme test too, to get to know if you have polymorphismes in the livers detoxification.
(You use the GeneticGenie.org for a detox panel that shows quite a few SNP´s of phase I and phase II detox in the liver).
Then you will know better before amalgam removal how sensitive you might be to toxins and analgetics.

IAOMT.org has a good homepage too with information before amalgam removal.

I think they recommend that you should start two months before amalgam removal with antioxidants like vit C and E, selenium a.o. to prepare your body. Vitamin B12 has been of great value for people with polymorphisms during amalgam removal, probably as B12 is an antioxidant too. So don´t hurry with the removal, be prepared.

 

[Little Bluestem]

@Mels, I had some other problems going on, so what I did would probably not be applicable to you. When I saw my doctor in 6 months, the liver enzymes were OK.

My doctor recommended milk thistle. That can deplete vitamin B2 (riboflavin), so it might be good to take a small dose of B2 along with it.

Several years ago I did a liver cleanse with LiverCare by Himalaya Herbal Health Care just because I thought it might be helpful. I had not tested my liver beforehand. I was surprised to find that it resolved my intolerance to alcohol that I had attributed to age. Since you are sensitive to things, my suggestion is to start with this.

 

[Mels]

@Mels, I had some other problems going on, so what I did would probably not be applicable to you. When I saw my doctor in 6 months, the liver enzymes were OK.

My doctor recommended milk thistle. That can deplete vitamin B2 (riboflavin), so it might be good to take a small dose of B2 along with it.

Several years ago I did a liver cleanse with LiverCare by Himalaya Herbal Health Care just because I thought it might be helpful. I had not tested my liver beforehand. I was surprised to find that it resolved my intolerance to alcohol that I had attributed to age. Since you are sensitive to things, my suggestion is to start with this.

Thank you. I have tried Milk Thistle and think it worked for a while - made my urine normal colour - but then I began to react badly tovan as yet identified supplement - likely Serrapeptase or Milk Thistle. I seem to recall reading that Milk Thistle can be involved in creating glutathione, and I am very sensitive at the moment to any glutathione.....don't know if that makes sense!
I will investigate LiverCare.

 

[ahmo]

@Mels, After switching from milk thistle (hi sulfur), I've had excellent results with Chanca Piedra, herb AKA "breakstone". Initially relieved my gb pains rapidly, now use daily for excellent liver support. cheers, ahmo

 

[Mels]

Hi Ahmo,
Am trying Chanca Piedra, thank you for the tip! It certainly seems to have caused my stools to darken a bit which is a good sign. Did you have liver problems? I am being referred to a liver specialist - haven't got a date yet - so am hoping that will be helpful one way or another........

 

[ahmo]

Hi Mels. I'd started having severe gall bladder pains. An acupuncture tx relieved them for about 24 hrs. When I researched, I found chanca piedra. Initially I took them twice a day. The pains left, have never returned. After about a month I took them about once a week. Then my stools lightened. So I resumed, now taking 1/day, unless I'm in some strife. I don't have liver problems, but detoxxing metals and bacteria is stressful on liver. I used coffee enemas about weekly for awhile, then stopped. Now I've upped my detox regimen, and the last few weeks have been doing coffee enemas 4 days, off for a couple, then another 4 days. I've just switched to the made-for-enemas coffee, s A Wilson, and this seems to be an excellent product. A few days ago I had a strong reaction after the enemas, v spacey, irritable. I always need extra potassium, mg, other minerals after. ( I strongly recommend self-testing, you can find youtube vids) Then I changed my procedure. Now, clear water enema, or 2 if necessary, then I've been doing 2 coffee enemas, then followed by clear water, into which I've added potassium, ascorbic acid, GABA, glycine. I then require less minerals afterwards. But I immediately follow up w/ footbaths, w/ K+, C, other aminoes, and extra minerals. If I replace all these nutrients quickly, I'm no longer going into any sort of stress. Hope this helps. ahmo

 

[Freddd]

The liver is extremely dependent upon having a high level of AdoCbl present to make all the ATP it uses in the normal course of business. When the liver is damaged the cells start dying release lots of b12 into the serum causing unusually high serum levels for a person not substantially supplementing MeCbl and AdoCbl. Functional methylation is necessary for liver function as well and SAM-e has been studied in this connection. MeCbl and l-methylfolate are essential for good live health along with AdoCbl and l-carnitine. Liver is a good source of all the deadlock quartet because it needs them all for good functioning. I had liver damage and problems in the early 90s from APAP when I was in methyltrap with severe MeCbl, AdoCbl, l-methylfolate and l-carnitine deficiencies.