Could ME/CFS be a part of CSF

Hip

Senior Member
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17,654
In the craniocervical instability Facebook groups started by Jen Brea, there is a whole cluster of skull and spinal cord conditions that ME/CFS patients are finding they have (and are treated for), including a leak of cerebrospinal fluid.

The set of conditions explored in these groups includes:
  • Craniocervical instability (CCI)
  • Atlantoaxial instability (AAI)
  • Chiari malformation
  • Cervical spinal stenosis
  • Syringomyelia
  • Tethered cord
  • Cerebrospinal fluid leak
 

ruben

Senior Member
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245
There's a specialist in this field based in Barcelona. His name escapes me at the minute. Anyway, I had an MRI scan in London. Then the specialist in Spain studied my scans and his view was, in his opinion, that although my scans weren't 100% how they should be, he didn't think they are the cause of my symptoms. I do have some cracking in my neck when I turn my head.
 

hapl808

Senior Member
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1,699
I question that she had actual ME. Maybe yes, with the ME state sustained by glial activation due to the leaks, but maybe it was a ME-like disorder via a different mechanism. The constellation of symptoms is not unique to ME; it overlaps other diseases.

Even further - I always say that ME/CFS is a bit nebulous as we have no definitive diagnostics. Since it's a disorder defined by a symptom cluster, we may find it's one illness or ten illnesses. If we had no imaging, then MS would be under the same bucket, and Long Covid, and maybe post polio, etc.

I think that's one of the reasons that treatments are so individual. What works for one person may be entirely ineffective for others.
 

lenora

Senior Member
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4,595
Hello @Hip......I have three of the disorders you mentioned, Syringomyelia, Arnold-Chiari (successfully repaired, but I haven't had an MRI for about 2-3 yrs.) and Spinal Stenosis....and lots of pain. Gabapentin, once I was given the correct doses helped (but didn't take it all away) the pain. Compared to before, I'm not complaining.

After time has passed, one seems to quit spending a lot of effort worrying about these conditions. Some stabilize and that's excellent. My CFS/FM was in addition to these problems and now I have problems that I never, ever imagined. I'm 76 and many are old-age related.

I wonder if others with any of these illnesses suffer from severe anxiety/panic attacks in addition to their other symptoms? Ehler-Danlos should probably be included in that list, but perhaps it falls under CCI.

Blood patches (for spinal leak) are often harder than one is led to believe. Hopefully, none of you will need one. A lot of people have no problems at all with them. Yours, Lenora
 

Wishful

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I think glial improper function is the most likely candidate for ME's core mechanism. That fits the observations (triggered by immune activation), and the complexity of the glial/neural/blood vessel interaction makes it reasonable for a feedback loop to lock it in an abnormal state. The extreme difficulty of measuring all the properties involved in those interactions, especially if the problem is in a few cells in the hindbrain, explains why no one has found the cause yet, and also the difficulty (BBB) in finding chemicals that affect the symptoms. Also, if it's a few brain cells, that fits the rapidity of temporary remission. Overall, it's my best fit for explaining ME.

Muscle weakness could be cause by neural dysfunction. The signals going to the muscles could be weaker, or the feedback could make it feel like weakness, or it could affect whatever hormones or other supporting signals are important for optimum muscle use. I still think someone should do a test for muscle response to electrical stimulation (bypassing the neural system). With electrical stimulation, do the muscles of PWME contract less strongly? Are they less efficient metabolically than those of healthy people? It seems a simple enough test, and more economically efficient than funding countless studies on grip strength or exercise biking when the problem isn't proven to involve the muscles themselves?

I've posted a number of links recently about the complexity of the brain and the interaction between neurons and glial cells. It just seems so reasonable that a disturbance in the body's immune system would disturb the brain's immune system, which in turn would disturb neural function, leading to such symptoms as brainfog, lethargy, pain, and general malaise, and it would also disturb the various parts of the brain that autonomously control body functions, such as the gut, the muscles, lungs, eyes, etc. Different parts of the brain have subtly different glial cells (and maybe neurons too?) and these probably vary with the individual too. Throw in the variations in blood and glymph vessels, and it's quite reasonable to expect a disease to produce widely varied symptoms and responses to various factors. I think the really amazing thing is that humans don't have more of these "screws up the brain and everything else" diseases. Actually, there are probably more such diseases that we don't think fit, because they've been dismissed as somatic, or the result of some body dysfunction (muscles, liver, whatever) despite a lack of solid evidence.
 

lenora

Senior Member
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4,595
Thanks @Wishful....it's true that one study doesn't make a body of research, but I do remember that my glial activity must be all mixed it up. It has to be. Before the Big 3 (in Hip's post) were discovered, I was also found to have a pituitary tumor. That's fine.....after perhaps 25 yrs. and the drug bromocriptine, that went away....one hopes. Anyway, I don't have the same symptoms and I know my original neurologist would have told me. I've had enough MRI's (by the way, we owe them a huge thank-you) and other tests.

Right now, I'm just finished with tests....but at my age I can afford to be. Plus the fact that I did find out my problems in earlier years and found doctors who could help. My sleep isn't great, but you know that constant exhaustion. There was a time when I went back to easy-walking, and going out in the evening. So things don't stay stationary...they change (at least in my case they did).

It made interesting reading and I'm always interested. It may seem that everything is static as far as finding out a cause, etc., but trust me, it has moved forward considerably. We're just at the stage where everything seems slow but MS was considered psychological when I began my journey. Things change. Yours, Lenora
 

SWAlexander

Senior Member
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1,487
Actually, there are probably more such diseases that we don't think fit, because they've been dismissed as somatic, or the result of some body dysfunction (muscles, liver, whatever) despite a lack of solid evidence.
"lack of solid evidence" is the key. I appreciate you laying it out. Thanks.
 

lenora

Senior Member
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4,595
Hi....I mean to say that yes, I do suffer from severe anxiety and it has finally been controlled by Xanax. In spite of the many bad things you hear, it's the only thing that gave me relief.

My oldest daughter (now 52) has ADHD. Oddly enough, it has helped her gain great success, and hopefully we've resolved all of the negative feelings we each had. There's still no definitive test for it, or at least I haven't heard of one. We did take her to a research hospital and a team of doctors came to the conclusion that she suffered from it. She was never on medication, except for a very short time.

It would be interesting to find out if this is glial activity also. Her sister didn't have it, although a friend who was a psychiatrist who knew her well, later told me that he thought she did. My oldest had my attention at all times...all times, so perhaps the younger one did. Both are fine today.
 
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Wishful

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I think it's less a matter of lack of solid evidence and more a matter of "we don't want to recognize a disease as having a genuine biological cause, because that's more expensive for medical insurers". Researchers can also get funding for easier-to-study (but useless) projects if they deny that the cause might be some difficult to study part of the brain. Yet another reason for not studying the root cause: it might lead to a cure, while studies of downstream symptoms might lead to marketing profitable 'rest of your life' treatments. Yah, I'm in a cynical mood. :grumpy:
 

SWAlexander

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Yet another reason for not studying the root cause: it might lead to a cure, while studies of downstream symptoms might lead to marketing profitable 'rest of your life' treatments.
You are not far from what we experience for years.
Another thought. Anytime a patient has to see a doctor for the same problem, the doctor makes money.
 

Wishful

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Location
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Anytime a patient has to see a doctor for the same problem, the doctor makes money.
If the problem is the kind where the doctor doesn't have to do any extra work, it's even more beneficial to keep it going. With ME, there's no reason to do any time-consuming literature searches or write up any detailed reports, because there's nothing to find or do. Our poorly-run research system rewards researchers for doing easy-to-do but useless studies. How many researchers have a personal interest (loved one with ME) or have the credentials to get funding for a difficult-to-do study that breaks new ground?