Continual Brain Fog post Probiotics

[canyouhearmeaya]

I think it's very difficult to kill off a bacteria or miccroorganism via lack of feeding. The work of Dr Valter Longo suggests that even humans benefit from some periods of fasting and for bacteria it may be their natural state.

I am considering doing elemental diet into an anti-biotic / probiotic protocol, awaiting results from https://app.thryveinside.com/ + http://microbiomeprescription.com/ to ensure I''m not doing something stupid.

I'm currently on low fodmap keto and couldn't resist trying one of the mutaflor that arrived. I felt an immediate reaction, so hoping it's clearing up something pathogenic in my upper intestine.

Just to play devils advocate, have you not contradicted yourself there? (Difficult to starve bacteria, but going to try an elemental diet, which afaik is purely an attempt to remove all food source from bacteria?)

Personally I do not subscribe to the 'starving' approach either. Too many fodmaps is not the cause of SIBO, so the restriction is not the answer. Or maybe it is for some, but I think if it was that simple, SIBO wouldn't be such a complex puzzle.

I think again, it's always best to recognize SIBO as a symptom of physiological dysfucnction elsewhere, rather than a causal factor itself.

I hope you find success in your protocol, and i'd be keen to hear your results!

SIBO SUCKS. So my heart goes out to anyone dealing with it, in any form.

 

[cogent_thought]

Just to play devils advocate, have you not contradicted yourself there? (Difficult to starve bacteria, but going to try an elemental diet, which afaik is purely an attempt to remove all food source from bacteria?)

Personally I do not subscribe to the 'starving' approach either. Too many fodmaps is not the cause of SIBO, so the restriction is not the answer. Or maybe it is for some, but I think if it was that simple, SIBO wouldn't be such a complex puzzle.

I think again, it's always best to recognize SIBO as a symptom of physiological dysfucnction elsewhere, rather than a causal factor itself.

I hope you find success in your protocol, and i'd be keen to hear your results!

SIBO SUCKS. So my heart goes out to anyone dealing with it, in any form.

You are completely correct. The trick is to somehow usher in beneficial populations having subdued the less helpful ones.

At the moment I'm attempting to add as many vegetables (starting lower fodmap) to encourage some beneficial colonisation. I also desire to add in a digestive enzyme which may prevent some of fermentation that seems to happen in small intestine causing this issue. If all goes well I'll begin adding some of the carb veggies from this list eventually

 

[Shen]

People tend to forget that if you have an active infection in the gut or colon, probiotics will cause a reaction. and this is good, people tend to shy away from reactions when in fact they are sending a signal that toxins are being released from the infection and being processed.

Have you had a stool test?, because going out blind with what you could have on the gut its kind of useless and stupid, specially if you are hypochondriac, one day you will believe this, the other you will believe that.

I had the same reactions to probiotics, but I was having an active candida infection that I didn´t know, after insisting with the lactobacillus probiotics I have actually gotten 80% better, and I have shit tons of candida. this is my case tho. but again thanks to that I have learned that bad reactions are actually a good sign.

D-lactate is very polemic. in the medical literature there are actually 0 cases of D-lactic acidosis without a strong predisposition to it.

"In humans, elevated D(−)-Lactic acidosis is a rare metabolic occurrence that has only been reported in those with short bowel syndrome (SBS) "

You can read more about it for yourself: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5570418/

 

[canyouhearmeaya]

People tend to forget that if you have an active infection in the gut or colon, probiotics will cause a reaction. and this is good, people tend to shy away from reactions when in fact they are sending a signal that toxins are being released from the infection and being processed.

Have you had a stool test?, because going out blind with what you could have on the gut its kind of useless and stupid, specially if you are hypochondriac, one day you will believe this, the other you will believe that.

I had the same reactions to probiotics, but I was having an active candida infection that I didn´t know, after insisting with the lactobacillus probiotics I have actually gotten 80% better, and I have shit tons of candida. this is my case tho. but again thanks to that I have learned that bad reactions are actually a good sign.

D-lactate is very polemic. in the medical literature there are actually 0 cases of D-lactic acidosis without a strong predisposition to it.

"In humans, elevated D(−)-Lactic acidosis is a rare metabolic occurrence that has only been reported in those with short bowel syndrome (SBS) "

You can read more about it for yourself: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5570418/

That's a dangerous rhetoric, normally ushered by self-diagnosing hypochondriacs. 'Die off'.

I believe there is very little medical literature supporting 'die off', or medically known as a 'herxheimer reaction' outside of fungal infection i.e. Candida. Having said that, the internet is full of self diagnosed 'candida patients' and people experiencing 'die off' for years - ironically none of them have a stool test or any idea what they're talking about.

I've had stool testing in multiple forms, including a GI-MAP. 0 infection.

I really wish people would stop pushing this rhetoric, I fell pray to this stupid idea and it's the one of the reasons I kept taking them inspite of adverse effects. 'Oh maybe it gets worse before it gets better!'

So no, by enlarge your post is nonsense. Sorry to be blunt, but people pushing that nonsensical idea around outside of the context in which it is scientifically examined is stupid, dangerous and harmful.

Advise people to get stool testing - THAT is good advice.

What test did you take to confirm 'Candida'?

Edit: if you want to find a forum full of mentally ill people check who have fallen prey to the notion, look up 'Cure Zone'. It's actually incredibly sad to read a lot of the posts on there, it's like a meeting ground for self diagnosing people with 0 evidence to suggest any cause of action, continually pounding there body with herbs/probiotics etc and reporting 'die off' for years on end..


I think the reality for most people is if you have an adverse reaction, in most cases - you're having an adverse reaction.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

I believe there is very little medical literature supporting 'die off', or medically known as a 'herxheimer reaction' outside of fungal infection i.e. Candida.

Also during cancer treatment, and it's brutal ....

I think the reality for most people is if you have an adverse reaction, in most cases - you're having an adverse reaction.

I agree, by and large.

And yes, CureZone is one of the saddest places I'd ever been in my search for answers, before I found PR and HR ....

EDIT ... typos. What esle ...else. Damn.

 

[Shen]

That's a dangerous rhetoric, normally ushered by self-diagnosing hypochondriacs. 'Die off'.

I believe there is very little medical literature supporting 'die off', or medically known as a 'herxheimer reaction' outside of fungal infection i.e. Candida. Having said that, the internet is full of self diagnosed 'candida patients' and people experiencing 'die off' for years - ironically none of them have a stool test or any idea what they're talking about.

I've had stool testing in multiple forms, including a GI-MAP. 0 infection.

I really wish people would stop pushing this rhetoric, I fell pray to this stupid idea and it's the one of the reasons I kept taking them inspite of adverse effects. 'Oh maybe it gets worse before it gets better!'

So no, by enlarge your post is nonsense. Sorry to be blunt, but people pushing that nonsensical idea around outside of the context in which it is scientifically examined is stupid, dangerous and harmful.

Advise people to get stool testing - THAT is good advice.

What test did you take to confirm 'Candida'?

Edit: if you want to find a forum full of mentally ill people check who have fallen prey to the notion, look up 'Cure Zone'. It's actually incredibly sad to read a lot of the posts on there, it's like a meeting ground for self diagnosing people with 0 evidence to suggest any cause of action, continually pounding there body with herbs/probiotics etc and reporting 'die off' for years on end..


I think the reality for most people is if you have an adverse reaction, in most cases - you're having an adverse reaction.

Not really, Strong bacterial infections, like Lyme have reported also strong Herx that last weeks to months and you can view tons of research behind it. it depends on how widespread the infection gets and how nasty the pathogen is, Yes, candida is famous for having herx reactions as well, also very researched,

Even chronic viral infections have reported a herx reaction. in this same forum the success stories have reported worse symptoms on antivirals before getting better, herx that last months. Herx its not rare at all, Although I agree is not well researched outside Lyme or Candida. (and also syphilis) But it has been reported in all types of infections. including Parasites (Toxoplasma Gondii) so you can assume that Herx it's a very real thing to any pathogen and the inmune system reacts the same.



Also its very wrong to assume that herx should last not more than a couple of days, This depends, on syphilis it last 24 hours after treatment, Lyme can last weeks to months, for example with candida, candida its an extremely opportunistic pathogen when its in viral form and as soon as you feed it, it flares up. you can be in a loop of constant herx by treating it and also having the wrong diet. this could also apply to any pathogen that can self replicate faster than being killed, candida it's a famous one. why this happens?

"The breakdown of the spirochete after the use of antibiotics causes the release of toxins and cytokines. JHR is thought to be caused by an acute inflammatory reaction when cytokines and lipoproteins enter the patient's bloodstream. JHR causes an increase in inflammatory cytokines during the period of exacerbation, including interleukin-6, interleukin-8, and tumor necrosis factor-alpha, which result in the development of body aches, fevers, rashes, nausea and vomiting, and flushing, along with other symptoms. "

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK557820/ - from a study on shypilis. basically, herx its the body reacting to the toxins released from the pathogen and its own citokines being released to the blood, With this, herx can last as long as there is more infection to get.

I believe also CFSremission talks about herx being a good thing, I believed he said that if actually the probiotics didn´t cause herx, it wasn´t working. I believe the same, specially if you have an active infection caused by a nasty pathogen who releases tons of inflamattory stuff while diying.

I had 3 test. as you, a GI-MAP, which showed very high candida spp, and also candida albicans apart also, so a ton of fungi. Then I did a complete antibody test on candida, and my body has a very high reaction on all 3.
And finally a blood test to check for the FUT2 mutation which seems to be very correlated to chronic candida infections, and yes, I´m a non-secretor :/

So yeah, I disagree with your last stance, if you do react to a probiotic, and you are actually ill, strongly consider the probiotic is causing some type of herx reaction, unless its a soil probiotic that isn´t native to the gut, then I can understand that this could cause very serious virulence, thats why I strongly go against things like Prescript Assist(Of course, test first what its your problem, again, we can go in circles of why you are reacting the way you react, but without actual info on what's causing trouble on your gut, you´re going nowhere), But there is 0 sense why super researched probiotics like Lactobacillus spp or bifidobacterium spp would cause disease, and considering this are bacteria normally found in healthy people, there is no reason that the inmune system would have an abnormal reaction to them, No, Healthy people react good to the probiotic, ill people have bad reactions, this goes in hand with probiotic having antibacterial effects on certain pathogens (like lactobacillus, that increases lactic-acid, which is antimicrobial to a lot of others pathogens).

 

[canyouhearmeaya]

Not really, Strong bacterial infections, like Lyme have reported also strong Herx that last weeks to months and you can view tons of research behind it. it depends on how widespread the infection gets and how nasty the pathogen is, Yes, candida is famous for having herx reactions as well, also very researched,

Even chronic viral infections have reported a herx reaction. in this same forum the success stories have reported worse symptoms on antivirals before getting better, herx that last months. Herx its not rare at all, Although I agree is not well researched outside Lyme or Candida. (and also syphilis) But it has been reported in all types of infections. including Parasites (Toxoplasma Gondii) so you can assume that Herx it's a very real thing to any pathogen and the inmune system reacts the same.



Also its very wrong to assume that herx should last not more than a couple of days, This depends, on syphilis it last 24 hours after treatment, Lyme can last weeks to months, for example with candida, candida its an extremely opportunistic pathogen when its in viral form and as soon as you feed it, it flares up. you can be in a loop of constant herx by treating it and also having the wrong diet. this could also apply to any pathogen that can self replicate faster than being killed, candida it's a famous one. why this happens?

"The breakdown of the spirochete after the use of antibiotics causes the release of toxins and cytokines. JHR is thought to be caused by an acute inflammatory reaction when cytokines and lipoproteins enter the patient's bloodstream. JHR causes an increase in inflammatory cytokines during the period of exacerbation, including interleukin-6, interleukin-8, and tumor necrosis factor-alpha, which result in the development of body aches, fevers, rashes, nausea and vomiting, and flushing, along with other symptoms. "

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK557820/ - from a study on shypilis. basically, herx its the body reacting to the toxins released from the pathogen and its own citokines being released to the blood, With this, herx can last as long as there is more infection to get.

I believe also CFSremission talks about herx being a good thing, I believed he said that if actually the probiotics didn´t cause herx, it wasn´t working. I believe the same, specially if you have an active infection caused by a nasty pathogen who releases tons of inflamattory stuff while diying.

I had 3 test. as you, a GI-MAP, which showed very high candida spp, and also candida albicans apart also, so a ton of fungi. Then I did a complete antibody test on candida, and my body has a very high reaction on all 3.
And finally a blood test to check for the FUT2 mutation which seems to be very correlated to chronic candida infections, and yes, I´m a non-secretor :/

So yeah, I disagree with your last stance, if you do react to a probiotic, and you are actually ill, strongly consider the probiotic is causing some type of herx reaction (Of course, test first what its your problem, again, we can go in circles of why you are reacting the way you react, but without actual info on what's causing trouble on your gut, you´re going nowhere), But there is 0 sense why super researched probiotics like Lactobacillus spp or bifidobacterium spp would cause disease. if that were the case, people in general would react to this bacteria, and considering this are bacteria normally found in healthy people, there is no reason that the inmune system would have an abnormal reaction to them, No, Healthy people react good to the probiotic, ill people have bad reactions, this goes in hand with probiotic having antibacterial effects on certain pathogens (like lactobacillus, that increases lactic-acid, which is antimicrobial to a lot of others pathogens).

So you're taking a documented effect in a few select scenarios and extrapolating that out onto everything else? There are very select examples where the rule applies, that does not extrapolate out to everything infection or gut related.

Where did anyone talk about probiotics causing disease? So you think that because lactobacillus is part of the normal gut flora, that the quantity, location, strains etc have no potential for adverse effect? Or that adverse effect only occurs in the format of 'disease'?

You're making wild extrapolations on points, from tiny insignificant points of knowledge.


You may as well say 'X infection can cause a herxheimer reaction, so I believe all infection can.'

'Lactobacillus is part of the normal commensal bacteria, so the strains, location and quantity bare no relevance and under no circumstance does it have potential to cause adverse effect.'

Your points are non-sensical. I'm glad you've found something that worked for you, but clearly you lack the understanding to be advising other people, nor the critical thinking skills to be speaking with so much conviction about a topic you clearly don't understand.

I'm only being so blunt because again, I think you're parroting narratives that 100% have the potential to be harmful, and evidently most of this information you're parroting you've based around foundations which don't carry it.

 

[Judee]

I was just reading a post on another website by Dr Will Wiegman in his Lyme protocol. He recommends something called Pinella by Nutrimedix for brain healing and when I look up reviews on Amazon, many of them say this really helped with brain fog.

It makes me want to try it but I will have to do more research first before I buy.

Just thought I'd mention that though.

 

[Shen]

So you're taking a documented effect in a few select scenarios and extrapolating that out onto everything else? There are very select examples where the rule applies, that does not extrapolate out to everything infection or gut related.

Um ok?, didn't expect the aggressive response. as you said "herx its very unresearched", and I also showed you whats the theory behind herx on the article above, which is a release of toxins and cytokines from the pathogen as it dies. its reaching out too much saying that it can happen with other pathogens that also release toxins?

Where did anyone talk about probiotics causing disease? So you think that because lactobacillus is part of the normal gut flora, that the quantity, location, strains etc have no potential for adverse effect? Or that adverse effect only occurs in the format of 'disease'?
You're making wild extrapolations on points, from tiny insignificant points of knowledge.
'Lactobacillus is part of the normal commensal bacteria, so the strains, location and quantity bare no relevance and under no circumstance does it have potential to cause adverse effect.'

I never said that, lactobacillus can get opportunistic, but lacto probiotics(as in the product) are transient,most don't produce spores and they go out the other end rather quickly. You mentioned D-lactic acidosis, and that its actually reaching, considering its only been reported in people with SBS.
Most of what I said its based on knowledge from research.

Your points are non-sensical. I'm glad you've found something that worked for you, but clearly you lack the understanding to be advising other people, nor the critical thinking skills to be speaking with so much conviction about a topic you clearly don't understand.

I'm only being so blunt because again, I think you're parroting narratives that 100% have the potential to be harmful, and evidently most of this information you're parroting you've based around foundations which don't carry it.

ok dude. Literally you have said nothing and talk out of your ass.
I proposed an actual reason why people react to a probiotic with herx. with research and fairly simplistic logic. but you do you I guess.
Finally, I forgot, You could also develop some inmune changes with probiotics, specially if you are Th2 dominant, and in that case, probiotics can worsen your th2 dominance, then again, this is temporal in people with MCAS or HI who ingested things like Lactobacillus Casei And experienced a flare up.

and lastly, you could have an infection from a probiotic and have sepsis specially if you are very immunosuppressed or have a very serious case of leaky gut, but by that moment you would be hospitalized for sepsis.

Anyways I don´t have anything to add, I wanted a healthy debate, not this crap, but oh well, good day.

 

[canyouhearmeaya]

Anyways I don´t have anything to add, I wanted a healthy debate, not this crap, but oh well, good day.

Once again, your post is full of extrapolated points and false assumptions.

Sharing ideas is one thing, people speaking with total conviction on topics they evidently aren't educated on is idiocy - and dangerous. You're far too sure about things you can't be sure about. You aren't debating, you're attempting to lecture. If you lectured with information like that in any kind of scientific establishment, you'd be laughed out.

That's why I'm being blunt, i'm tired of people being ignorant to the danger of their own conviction and self-biased unfounded beliefs.

 

[Judee]

Pinella looks to be just anise seed extract. Will have to research more to verify but I can't have the Nutrimax type anyway because of the alcohol. So instead, I'm going to try to make my own extract like I do thyme tea in the crockpot only using anise seed instead.

Anyway, if you're interested, I'll try to do an update if I remember. (Well it is suppose to help with that so we'll see.)

 

[Shen]

Once again, your post is full of extrapolated points and false assumptions.

What false assumptions?

Um ok?, didn't expect the aggressive response. as you said "herx its very unresearched", and I also showed you whats the theory behind herx on the article above, which is a release of toxins and cytokines from the pathogen as it dies. its reaching out too much saying that it can happen with other pathogens that also release toxins?

Mechanism behind Herx:

"The breakdown of the spirochete after the use of antibiotics causes the release of toxins and cytokines. JHR is thought to be caused by an acute inflammatory reaction when cytokines and lipoproteins enter the patient's bloodstream. JHR causes an increase in inflammatory cytokines during the period of exacerbation, including interleukin-6, interleukin-8, and tumor necrosis factor-alpha, which result in the development of body aches, fevers, rashes, nausea and vomiting, and flushing, along with other symptoms. " https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK557820/

I never said that, lactobacillus can get opportunistic, but lacto probiotics(as in the product) are transient,most don't produce spores and they go out the other end rather quickly. You mentioned D-lactic acidosis, and that its actually reaching, considering its only been reported in people with SBS.
Most of what I said its based on knowledge from research.

Probiotics are usually transient. "The frequency of probiotic supplementation is typically once to twice daily. While the literature continues to indicate that probiotic species colonize the gastrointestinal tract to exert their therapeutic activity, probiotics are characteristically transient and generally do not persist past 1 to 2 weeks after supplementation has ceased "

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5570418/

About D-lactic Acidosis: "In humans, elevated D(−)-Lactic acidosis is a rare metabolic occurrence that has only been reported in those with short bowel syndrome (SBS) "

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5570418/

Finally, I forgot, You could also develop some inmune changes with probiotics, specially if you are Th2 dominant, and in that case, probiotics can worsen your th2 dominance, then again, this is temporal in people with MCAS or HI who ingested things like Lactobacillus Casei And experienced a flare up.

Probiotics tend to cause histamine issues by modulating the inmune system or releasing histamine.

"but some strains produce histamine, a toxic substance that causes health issues. Histamine-producing strains belong to species of the genera Oenococcus, Lactobacillus, and Pediococcus. "

https://aem.asm.org/content/74/3/811.full

and lastly, you could have an infection from a probiotic and have sepsis specially if you are very immunosuppressed or have a very serious case of leaky gut, but by that moment you would be hospitalized for sepsis.

Probiotics in very rare cases do cause sepsis: "We describe 2 patients who received probiotic lactobacilli and subsequently developed bacteremia and sepsis attributable to Lactobacillus species. "

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15629999/

Aniways I´m tired of answering you. Believe what you want to believe dude.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

if you do react to a probiotic, and you are actually ill, strongly consider the probiotic is causing some type of herx reaction, unless its a soil probiotic that isn´t native to the gut, then I can understand that this could cause very serious virulence,

I've been on a short crusade about the casualness with which people pop probiotics, the current great side-effect free cure all.

There are so many strains of even the simplest lacto or bifido bacterium, each one specific to various potential benefits, and people take them in the belief that even if they dont really help, at least they don;t harm.

While they almost never do permanent harm, they can create quite a stormy confrontation in your gut, as they can displace your normal bacteria in a sort of gang-war effect. Fortunately, since even probiotics advertised as colonizers really arent, they pass thru your system within a specific, usually not very long, time frame, as @Shen pointed out. And yes, if you're taking the right strain, they can have a positive effect, but Im not sure for how long wihtout steady dosing of the probiotic that's producing positive results.

Prebotics, and supporting and protecting your existing microbiome might be a better answer, or at least a positive adjunct.

I think what @canyouhearmeaya is reacting to are the armies of people who, without testing or investigating, or anything as inhibiting as actual facts, simply put every negative reaction down to a Herxheimer reaction, and keep blundering along, down the same useless path.

This clearly isn't the case with you @Shen. You've done the testing and the research, you know what you're dealing with and talking about, and your statements are well-argued and supported with actual facts and research.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

He recommends something called Pinella by Nutrimedix for brain healing

Not sure how beneficial trying to extract it thru long, steady heat will be. Some constituents in herbs can only be extracted, or fully extracted, with an alcohol base in addition to water.

On the other hand, some extraction is better than none, particularly if you're sensitive to alcohol.

I'll be really interested to hear how your experiment goes.

 

[Shen]

I've been on a short crusade about the casualness with which people pop probiotics, the current great side-effect free cure all.

There are so many strains of even the simplest lacto or bifido bacterium, each one specific to various potential benefits, and people take them in the belief that even if they dont really help, at least they don;t harm.

While they almost never do permanent harm, they can create quite a stormy confrontation in your gut, as they can displace your normal bacteria in a sort of gang-war effect. Fortunately, since even probiotics advertised as colonizers really arent, they pass thru your system within a specific, usually not very long, time frame, as @Shen pointed out. And yes, if you're taking the right strain, they can have a positive effect, but Im not sure for how long wihtout steady dosing of the probiotic that's producing positive results.

Prebotics, and supporting and protecting your existing microbiome might be a better answer, or at least a positive adjunct.

I think what @canyouhearmeaya is reacting to are the armies of people who, without testing or investigating, or anything as inhibiting as actual facts, simply put every negative reaction down to a Herxheimer reaction, and keep blundering along, down the same useless path.

This clearly isn't the case with you @Shen. You've done the testing and the research, you know what you're dealing with and talking about, and your statements are well-argued and supported with actual facts and research.

thank you for the kind response

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

thank you for the kind response

Been there. Know what it feels like .

Ya' done good .....

 

[cogent_thought]

TLDR; D-Lactate bacterial metabolite production marked as high in 16s gut microbiome analyisis

So I got my Thryve results after almost a month of waiting. Uploaded to biomesight and microbiomeprescription.com. Lots of data, lots of information. I work in data and I find it somewhat overwhelming, so I'm not sure how someone else could navigate!

Anyway, one relevant tidbit I want to share is this; Apparently I'm in the top 89th percentile of d-lacate metabolite production. I'm sure this alone is not enough to mess you up, but with other gut/metabolic issues I think could be a contributor.

The numbers below are computed from your microbiome compared to the amount made by other persons in our database. These are metabolites produced by bacteria themselves and are often available as supplements. Many of these are also consumed by other bacteria. For blog post on this page.. A value of 25%ile or below may warrant supplementation.